12-Step Coercion

Quailfeather · Jun 9, 2004

Point 1- the book Alcholics anonymous has an entire chapter devoted to the agnostic, not trying to convince them they need be religous or spiritual

Chapter 4 of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous titled We Agnostics most certainly does attempt to convert agnostics (and atheists) to a religious point of view! I don't see how you can seriously claim that it does not. Consider the following excepts taken from that chapter:

"Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God." p.45

"We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God." p.46

"We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him." p.46

"Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it?" p.49

"We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have learned that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about." p.49

"When many hundreds of people are able to say that the consciousness of the Presence of God is today the most important fact of their lives, they present a powerful reason why one should have faith." p.51

"When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did." p.52

"When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crisis we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't. What was our choice to be?" p.53

As an agnostic, I find that chapter to be nothing more than a hard sell on the God concept. Bill Wilson's use of the word *spiritual* throughout that chapter is nothing more than a deceptive exercise of rhetoric. The entire book, in fact, is riddled with similar disguised religious dogma that failed to go unnoticed when subjected to the scrutiny of several U.S. Courts.

Point 2- Your case is extremely rare if what you say is true, and the greater good is served by sentencing people to treatment and AA.

Sentencing anyone to treatment that uses religious principles violates their religious freedom. The Supreme Court has repeatedly made clear that at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise. To force one to give up their constitutional rights, in the name of "greater good" is nothing less than an act of tyranny. C.S. Lewis said it best when he proclaimed, "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jun 9, 2004

Quailfeather, I believe too it is religious in nature. Where they try to get away with saying it isn't is that it isn't part of any demonination. So AA is not a religion, but it's very religious if I'm making sense. Also, many stress that the "power greater than yourself" can be anything. Meaning you yourself have failed to get and stay sober, it's time to look for something outside yourself, thus a "power" greater than yourself. For AA and the founders that power was God, but it doesn't have to be, you don't have to subscribe to anything. But for anyone who has read the book to say it isn't about "religion" is nitpicking semantics IMHO. It's rooted in the Judeo-Christian model to confess and turn your life over to God.

Again, it works. The millions of groups throughout the world are testimony to that. But I agree it violates someone's freedom of choice when forced on someone.

Being an alcoholic or drug addict is dangerous. I agree with forced treatment and accountability or surrender your license, but not necessarily force someone to go to AA meetings if they have a problem with it.

Bottom line patient safety is most important.

Liddle Noodnik · Jun 9, 2004

at least if I had been aressted, I would have been read my rights.

I'm sorry that happened to you...

Havin' A Party!, ASN, RN · Jun 9, 2004

Separately spoke to two folks at work last night that have been through the AA program here in the Northeast.

Asked them if, from their experience, they could say whether or not the program had a substantial religious component to it. Both immediately responded with: "most definitely."

Just passing this along, as I've no detailed knowledge / experience with the program.

Havin' A Party!, ASN, RN · Jun 9, 2004

Forgot to mention that I've no problem with the "forcing" of some people into some programs, in general.

Depending on the individual and how the "forcing" is addressed, think it can still be beneficial and conclude in a worthwhile outcome.

tommyperkins · Jun 9, 2004

several people here have denied that aa is religious. for those of you who have not read the 12-steps here they are. a fourth grader could easily see that the steps are religious and are a detailed prescription for one's relationship with their god.

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/default/en_about_aa_sub.cfm?subpageid=84&pageid=13

aa denies that it is religious and teaches its members to deny that it is religious with chants such as "spiritual, not religious."

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/default/en_about_aa_sub.cfm?subpageid=83&pageid=13

the reason aa denies that it is religious is because aa is one of the most dishonest organizations in the world. it depends on getting its conscripts through government coercion and fully cooperates with this coercion.

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/default/en_pdfs/mg-05_coopwithcourt.pdf

one of aa's traditions claims attraction rather than promotion, yet its official published policy is pro-coercion.

here is an excellent article written by a radiologist who was coerced into the 12-step program as a condition for a liver transplant.

http://www.morerevealed.com/articles/kirton.htm

the following are the words of a psychiatrist who was forced into 12-step treatment. the story was first published in the journal of rational recovery under the title, "brainwashing 101, or how i survived 12-step rehab":

"i was told that "addicts do not like following rules," so many arbitrary rules were imposed to essentially break us of the bad habit of thinking independently. they wanted to break my will, so that i would "snap," and become one of them, obedient and grateful to the program. . . .

i was told from the moment that i arrived . . . [that if i] didn't complete their "simple program," there was a 100% chance i would drink again, and would lose my career and my family, and would ultimately die from drinking.

. . . i was not allowed to question anything about aa, especially the religious aspect. they kept telling me that my thinking was stinking, that my intelligence was a liability and was causing my problems, and that i had better check my psychiatric knowledge at the door and stop thinking.""

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/chapter8.htm

Long Term Care Columnist / Guide · Jun 9, 2004

To the OP: Okay, if you don't want people 'coerced' into attending AA or NA meetings, what would you suggest they be mandated to do? Or do you think all treatment should be voluntary, meaning there is no real accountability to the state which issued the nurse's license, let alone the public, and thus no assurance that he or she is even making an effort toward recovery?

Granted, not every nurse who is accused of impropriety in dealing with narcotics is guilty, and not every nurse who diverts drugs is an addict. And NO treatment program, regardless of whether it's held in a church basement or on the top floor of a professional building, can guarantee success. But there are enough substance abusers out there that states have decided to require certain things of licensees who are presumed to have a problem, and that is as it should be. If not AA/NA, then what? And why so judgmental toward the boat builders and topless dancers and factory workers---do they have nothing of value to offer, simply because they occupy a lower position on the socioeconomic food chain than you do?

I rest my case. :stone

Nurse Ratched, RN · Jun 9, 2004

I've tried to keep up with this thread - has anyone mentioned Rational Recovery as an alternative?

sleepless in norman · Jun 9, 2004

enjoyed your reading and it is a breath of fresh air to see someone else being fed up with the intrusiveness of some state boards, read my story on this site entitled "down and dirty in the oklahoma state board of nursing" by me sleepless in norman. good luck.:)

the following presentation was given at the may 21, 2004 open forum of the north carolina board of nursing meeting:
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/ncbon.html

vwgirl · Jun 9, 2004

I've tried to keep up with this thread - has anyone mentioned Rational Recovery as an alternative?

I know several people who've gotten sober through Rational Recovery, so I am all for it (except it makes it sound like NA provides Irrational Recovery!); again, whatever gets ya clean and enables you to live the life you were meant to have is a good thing. But I get the feeling that those who oppose mandatory treatment programs will oppose RR as well, if it is mandated. I am not so sure it is the "religious" aspect that is not sitting well; could it be the "mandatory" part? Just a thought.....

Nurse Ratched, RN · Jun 9, 2004

I am not so sure it is the "religious" aspect that is not sitting well; could it be the "mandatory" part?

That's what I'm wondering. I guess my thought is that, as someone said much earlier, our licensure is a privilege, not a right. If we mess up and have our capability of carrying that licensure called into question, then we are subject to whatever mandates are placed upon us by our governing body. I can understand the objection to a religiously based mandation (and both sides of whether or not AA is religious have already been argued) but hopefully we're not questioning the need for treatment of some sort in cases where drug abuse is an issue.

SRbear · Jun 9, 2004

The Whole Point Or Going To These Meetings Is One Helping The Other...i Promise You That "professionals" You Go To Are Not Any More Capable Of Helping You Than Someone Who Has Been There
Wow, that's a scary thought. I certainly hope the professionals are better equipped to help us, because the "been there, done's that" may not have the simple social skills to walk another person through some extremely traumatic events, regardless of their own experiences. I can tell another person what it was like to have cancer, but I surely am NOT equipped to treat them.
Case in point--this happened locally over 3 years ago. 26 year old man court ordered to AA following a domestic abuse charge, following several months of alcohol abuse. He was NOT ordered to anger management, nor any other type of professional counseling. He obtained the obligatory "sponsor", a man that had been a lifelong alcoholic and worked in a boat factory. The guys wife attended AA with him and one day after a meeting, went to the "sponsor" and told him that her hubby was acting irritable--the sponsor went a little off the wall--asked the kid if he'd been doing his Big Book reading assignments, his nightly prayers and phone calls...the kid said no, the sponsor said, "well, ya wouldn't be feeling this way if you'd read your book and prayed"....next day, kid rapes and strangles to death his wife in front of his 2 young children....do ya think a professionally trained, college educated mental health therapist would have told the guy to go home and read a book? So, yep, the boat maker had "been there, done that" and hardly handled the situation appropriately--on the contrary, he did nothing short of killing that young woman...
In response to the "too angry to be objective." "Anger" can propel a person to educate themselves and understand every aspect of a cause they are pursuing..ignorance does not.
To SRbear, I am so happy that you shared your story. People that have not been through the nightmare of a false allegation, cannot even fathom the horror of it. There are so many nurses that have made false admissions just to save their license. When you have a prosecutor or even board agent tell you that if you do not "admit" to a problem and enter in to a "confidential" program, you WILL face state and federal felony charges and permanent licensure records..and possibly a prison sentence..who wouldn't "admit" and jump through whatever hoops necessary to preserve your livelyhood. I'm sorry you had to go through that and hope you are getting through all of it okay. What every single nurse MUST understand, that something as "simple" as a documentation error can lead to very serious charges--and the board DOES N
OT have to "prove" guilt. They simply have to show evidence.

I think I love you !!!