12-Step Coercion

vwgirl · Jun 10, 2004

I can only speak for myself here...The program that I was mandated to by the state board requires me to 1) call in every morning by 11am to listen to a recording to see if it is my day for a UA we are required to do 24 per year (some people are required to do more for various reasons, but 24 is the standard), along with the UAs come the cost of them, for me its $35.00 each, but I am lucky and have a lab that does the collection for me for free, in other states the price tag is MUCH higher and they have to do more of them.....2) I am FORCED to attend at least 3 12 step meeting per week, after inpatient rehab I had to do 90 meetings in 90 days, for me the meetings are the worst, it goes against all my beliefs, its blasphemis and I despise going to them, what DOES work for me is Rational Recovery but that is not an option that I am allowed, other programs they could let choose from are RR, Smart Recovery, Women in Recovery, and I know there are more that I am forgetting.....3) I am required to have a work site monitor who sends a monthly report on my "progress"......4) I have to do a monthly self report as to how I think I'm doing.....5) a monthly calendar showing meetings I've attended, when, where, topics...etc....6) I'm am required to have a sponsor and be at that persons mercy and beck and call....7) A monthly monitoring fee........anyway these are the big parts of it, I'm sure theres small stuff I'm forgetting.....other states require much much more than this....Now here's an interesting tidbit, if your monthly payment is late, its considered a "level 1 relapse behavior" and can be reported to the BON, so let me get this straight!?!...If I can't afford the bill, that means I'm relapsing?!?!?!?!!......What kind of logic is that?!?!.....Honestly, the only part I can't stand about my program is the meetings, I hate them I absolutely hate them...BUT that's MY choice!!....If it works for somebody else GReat!!!!...but we should have some choices of other programs than AA/NA, period.....the emphasis with alternative programs should be on TOTAL ABSTINENCE for mood altering substances and it shouldn't matter HOW you maintain that abstinence, the fact that you DO maintain it should be enough......and how do they monitor your abstinence??...thru bodily fluid testing or hair if you like......The kicker here is that the program I'm in is considered VERY progressive and new, it is a cake walk compaired to other states.....Anybody here from Ohio???.....Ohio is a prime example of a BON and government that considers "impaired nurses " to be garbage, and that's not my wording its THEIR's!!!!!!......Anybody else wanna tell what their program requirements are??...Maybe it would help people not in a program to understand it better, just a thought......Anywho, does that help as far as the "big picture" and what other things we are required to do??.....If I've offended anyone I apologize, but can you see why we get as upset and as angry as we do??...I'm not trying to justify anyones bad behavior but maybe this will help explain it........It's very frustrating to feel that your control has been stripped and now somebody in a far away town is running my life....Thanks for listening. [/quote']
...only because my sponsor has NEVER made me feel like I am at her "mercy or beck and call"; I know some sponsors can be rough, I guess I am just lucky I got a good one. But it's not like being married you know, you can always pick a new one (I've been dumped by a sponsee before, and it was beat, but for the best in the end.) What do you find blasphemous in the meetings you go to? (I'll conceed there is a lot of profanity....)

BabyRN2Be · Jun 10, 2004

"The focus is on stopping drinking. Period."

A relative has been involved in AA and this person has stated that if you wanted, a door knob could be your higher power if you wish. Not necessarily a force in the universe. Since I'm not in AA, I'm unsure of other things. As loerith said, the focus is stay clean and sober, not a matter of "God" in your life.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jun 10, 2004

A relative has been involved in AA and this person has stated that if you wanted, a door knob could be your higher power if you wish. Not necessarily a force in the universe. Since I'm not in AA, I'm unsure of other things. As loerith said, the focus is stay clean and sober, not a matter of "God" in your life.

But to stay clean and sober one must turn their life over to a higher power. Some people have such a problem with that it obscures everything else. They should be respected enough not to have it mandated that they go exclusively to AA, but be offered alternatives.

On the other hand, as my spouse says, you take what you need and leave the rest. Some people can overlook the God stuff, do their time, and even learn a little bit. To others it's so offensive, even as tommyperkins says harmful. With all due respect to tommyperkins, I don't think one size fits all, AA has been a miracle is too many countless lives to be harmful 100% of time. There are plenty of people who have tried everything and AA was the only thing that's helped them. But one size doesn't fit all for nurses who make mistakes with Pyxis, or who get a DUI, or take some morphine during times of extreme stress. (Could I be anymore on the fence with this. LOL):)

elkpark · Jun 10, 2004

I certainly agree that it would be nice if professionals were offered more options than just AA in impaired professional programs, but the reality remains that the BON is making the decisions. We are all licensed and practice on the say-so of the licensing board.

No one is being "forced" to go to AA -- you choose to do that if you want to keep/regain a license to practice nursing. But you always have the option of just choosing to go into another line of work ...

tommyperkins · Jun 11, 2004

i certainly agree that it would be nice if professionals were offered more options than just aa in impaired professional programs, but the reality remains that the bon is making the decisions. we are all licensed and practice on the say-so of the licensing board.
no one is being "forced" to go to aa -- you choose to do that if you want to keep/regain a license to practice nursing. but you always have the option of just choosing to go into another line of work ...

as a state agency, a board of nursing is bound by certain laws. and they are violating the constitution in a very serious way if they attach an ultimatum of attending religious exercises as a requirement for holding a license to practice nursing. as i have said before, they are violating the religion clauses of the first amendment as well as the religious test clause of article vi, section 3 of the constitution. this is not the first time you have denied that boards force people to go to aa. it sounds like you want to play a game of semantics with the word "force". as i pointed out before the federal appeals court used the word "forcing" in their opinion in the warner case. do you also deny that boards coerce people to go to aa or that they compel people to go to aa? you also never answered my previous question, "do you deny that a license to practice nursing is a public trust?" (see post #13 of this thread).[/size]

it appears that you believe the boards are above the law when you say, "but the reality remains that the bon is making the decisions." i repeat, the board is not above the constitution. they can no more demand a religious test than they can demand a racial test. they cannot attach unconstitutional conditions to a public trust. they cannot deny a license to a person because of their chosen religious faith and they cannot deny a license to someone because of their race. they cannot coerce people into aa because aa is a religious organization. they cannot even promote aa, let alone coerce people into aa.[/size]

now read the first quote from my presentation--justice blackmun's concurring opinion in lee v weisman:

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/ncbon.html

mscsrjhm · Jun 11, 2004

Big Babs wrote: "the emphasis with alternative programs should be on TOTAL ABSTINENCE for mood altering substances and it shouldn't matter HOW you maintain that abstinence, the fact that you DO maintain it should be enough......"

Total and complete agreement here. Punishment is enough for some people. If others want help, let them seek it. If some do not want help, so be it. That is what most would call a "free" country.

Mschrisco

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jun 11, 2004

Big Babs wrote: "the emphasis with alternative programs should be on TOTAL ABSTINENCE for mood altering substances and it shouldn't matter HOW you maintain that abstinence, the fact that you DO maintain it should be enough......"
Total and complete agreement here. Punishment is enough for some people. If others want help, let them seek it. If some do not want help, so be it. That is what most would call a "free" country.
Mschrisco

I disagree. Being dry isn't good enough for me. I would want the nurses working with me and taking care of my family to have some sort of counseling and support and a time-limited basis. Not necessarily AA, but something. Agree to disagree?

When you break the law (stealing narcs) or don't meet the requirements to keep a nursing license (being a practicing alcoholic) then unfortunately some freedom and liberties must be limited for public safety.

Liddle Noodnik · Jun 11, 2004

Several people here have denied that AA is religious. For those of you who have not read the 12-steps here they are. A fourth grader could easily see that the steps are religious and are a detailed prescription for one’s relationship with their God

Sounds like it was hard for you. Did you ever check out "Rational Recovery" which does not use the "God" principle? I have no info on it, don't know if it's effective, but it is another resource.

mscsrjhm · Jun 11, 2004

I disagree. Being dry isn't good enough for me. I would want the nurses working with me and taking care of my family to have some sort of counseling and support and a time-limited basis. Not necessarily AA, but something. Agree to disagree?
When you break the law (stealing narcs) or don't meet the requirements to keep a nursing license (being a practicing alcoholic) then unfortunately some freedom and liberties must be limited for public safety.

Agree to disagree.

Mschrisco

Liddle Noodnik · Jun 11, 2004

A relative has been involved in AA and this person has stated that if you wanted, a door knob could be your higher power if you wish.
I heard someone share about that at a meeting once -- his doorknob was "George". Hey, it was something outside himself, and it worked!

loerith · Jun 11, 2004

Actually what loerith {me} said was this: the emphasis is on finding a Higher Power not just stopping drinking.

If you have been to more than 3 or 4 AA meetings you should know this.

Alcohol is only mentioned in the first step.

God {or Higher Power} is mentioned in steps 2,3,5,6, and 11.

The Big Book {AA's basic text} says this:

{and btw I just randomly turned to page 85 and found this}

"Everyday is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities." How can I best serve Thee-Thy will {not mine} be done." These are thoughts that must go with us constantly. ......... "If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of His Spirit into us. To some extent we have become God-conscious."

If that isnt religious I'm a pink Martian moose.

Peace and Love,

loerith

p.s. again....personally I believe in these things. But no one should be mandated into a particular belief system. And the BoN has no right to be above the Constitution.

Big Bab's · Jun 11, 2004

...only because my sponsor has NEVER made me feel like I am at her "mercy or beck and call"; I know some sponsors can be rough, I guess I am just lucky I got a good one. But it's not like being married you know, you can always pick a new one (I've been dumped by a sponsee before, and it was beat, but for the best in the end.) What do you find blasphemous in the meetings you go to? (I'll conceed there is a lot of profanity....)

Change sponsors??...Only with approval from the program director!!...Blasphemis??...well false deity's for one!!..."You can even use that door knob as your higher power/God.".......and to answer tweety about the Ohio wording, I have seen them use BOTH "impaired nurses" and "garbage" in the media when referring to nurses awaiting discipline or in their "program". :stone