For-Profit NP admissions... I thought they were joking!

[SummitRN]

This is a story about how I got accepted to a big name online for-profit:

A phone number kept calling me incessantly for weeks... I finally answered, prepared for my usual, "I'm on the no-call list so please remove me from your call list." It was a rep from some school I hadn't heard of, but apparently I'd filled out some webform.

Had I? OK... "are you good to go in my state? Well, I'm not interested but... OK I'll look at your application." I'd filled out the whole application in about 10 minutes while on the phone with the rep with 6 questions:

"Where do I submit my references information?"

"Where do I submit my CV?"

"Transcripts?"

"What are the application essay guidelines?"

"What is the interview like?"

"Is there an application fee?"

The answers were: "we don't need references, no CV, only transcripts for your BSN (not the other 5 schools), no essay, no interview, no fees."

I almost asked if they were a real school or if this was some kind of joke, but I played along because I was thoroughly amused. I sent one transcript, worth $5 for my amusement. Then I hit the internet to learn about this school.

I learned the school is a for-profit. Oh..... now it makes sense! I learned Walden doesn't have a physical campus, only office buildings that house the servers, executives, and recruiters (aka admissions advisors). Perusing threads on this forum only darkened the reputation. Yet, they are accredited by HLC and CCNE.

36 hours later I received my acceptance email. I declined. The admissions advisor started leaving me voicemails implying I must have clicked on the wrong button... I could still change my mind. I wrote him an email politely informing him I'd declined. He left me another voicemail that was distinctly aggravated.

I'm not opposed to the idea of online programs, but there have to be standards because a profession is perceived and regulated by its lowest common denominator. This selection process for lowest common denominator in NP education is a joke. No entry standards lets in good students too, but don't filter the subpar. It implies the standards once in the program won't be high either. The bar for admission should be higher than a RN license, a pulse, and the ability to sign off on student loans.

[Jory, MSN, APRN, CNM]

On 3/20/2019 at 8:35 AM, Null said:

This sounds like someone with a personal financial stake in you enrolling in the school.

I looked at Walden several years ago when their FNP program was new. I asked them for statistics on their graduation rates for MSN students and they couldn't give me that information.

Then they sent me a "disclosure" they wanted me to sign that said if I enrolled in the program, I may not be able to do clinicals in my state because the program had a "pending" application with the BON for approval.

I called the BON...there was no such application and the woman I spoke to seemed miffed (not at me, but at the nature of the call) because apparently, she had been receiving a lot of these calls since they announced they were starting an FNP program.

I can't speak today if that status has changed because I have no reason to keep up with it. But there was no way I was dealing with them after my experience. It forever changed my opinion of the school.

[gettingbsn2msn, MSN, RN]

Just to top this....I have had a number of students call my office and ask if I would precept them. I cannot return phone calls until the end of the day. I (at first) was happy to do this as I believed it advanced the profession and I enjoy teaching.

HOWEVER, I have encountered complete unprofessional behavior. I have returned phone calls inviting them to come in and discuss with me what their achievements are and how we will work on completing this. NOT ONE person returned my phone calls. I am done. No precepting out of this office! If one cannot return a phone call....how will you treat my patients.

[LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP]

8 hours ago, gettingbsn2msn said:

Just to top this....I have had a number of students call my office and ask if I would precept them. I cannot return phone calls until the end of the day. I (at first) was happy to do this as I believed it advanced the profession and I enjoy teaching.

HOWEVER, I have encountered complete unprofessional behavior. I have returned phone calls inviting them to come in and discuss with me what their achievements are and how we will work on completing this. NOT ONE person returned my phone calls. I am done. No precepting out of this office! If one cannot return a phone call....how will you treat my patients.

Wow. Talk about burning bridges there. Even if they found another preceptor already, they should still return your call, if only for the fact they might need a preceptor in another term.

"Thank you so much for returning my call. A previous contact has already agreed to be my preceptor for this term, but maybe we could arrange a time to meet so next term I would have the opportunity to learn from you. I really appreciate you taking the time to call me."

Doesn't seem hard.

[babatee, MSN, RN]

I have said it before , and will say it again..... The quality of education will matter more as the market becomes more and more saturated .

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

I agree that quality matters, but also believe that reflexive presumptions as to the quality of the education should be avoided. Rather, metrics such as board pass rates and ultimate success in the field would be better parameters. As someone currently enrolled in an "online" program (The University of Southern Indiana) I can say that it has been far more difficult than the on campus programs that I attended (Ball State in Muncie). In addition, my wife has been a successful PMHNP for the past four years having graduated from the same school. I cannot speak to Walden, but would say that it would take a more in depth review of their curriculum to arrive at a reasonable opinion. I can say that even when I was applying for my ASN more than a decade ago there was something like 500 applicants for 60 spots at Ivy Tech (in Indianapolis) whereas one could get accepted to Marion college and Butler with far less competition no doubt due to the fact (at least in part) that the private (but well respected) schools were 30K per year verses 60.00 per credit hour at Ivy Tech. In the same way Walden is quite expensive while many state schools like the one I attend are under $500.00 per credit hour (mine is still around $350.00 in part due to the fact that they do not charge out of state tuition to online students). In the final analysis what matters is being licensed and certified by the ANCC since this will enable one to go to one of the more than 20 independent practice states and practice. Ultimately, more practitioners and lower costs should equal increased access to care (albeit at the cost of salaries for practitioners such as myself). No doubt ceteris paribus most would prefer a more "stately" school, but in the final analysis when you are forced into a system where you have to see 27 patients per day (as is the norm here in Florida), skip your lunches, and work 3 hours off the clock to chart I'm not sure how much it matters.

[Oldmahubbard]

You mentioned lower costs. Just so you know, our low salaries are never passed on to the public.

Not ever.

Never have been since NP's were invented.

One of the reasons why we are "popular".

[irvine123]

2 minutes ago, Oldmahubbard said:

You mentioned lower costs. Just so you know, our low salaries are never passed on to the public.

Not ever.

Never have been since NP's were invented.

One of the reasons why we are "popular".

Just a question, are doctors lower salaries passed? I know the government does this and Corporate America..

[Oldmahubbard]

There is overhead. In the US, it is substantial.

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

Well I aspire one day to a clinic in an independent practice state where I have 30 minute appointments for medical management and charge no more than $200.00 per hour or $100.00 for a 30 minute medical management (my current practice where I do clinical charges $110/ for 15 minute medication management appointments). I would also like to have a four day work week, but stay open on Saturdays and have hours from something like 8am to 8pm on the days that I'm open. I believe that just having hours where kids on ADHD medicine wouldn't have to miss school would be a help (after all if you are already struggling with an issue like ADHD, missing school isn't optimal). I would also aspire to pay anyone who worked with me at least 50% of billed amounts (with a goal of 70%). I think it could be done in a state like Arizona, Washington, Hawaii, Oregon, or Nevada/New Mexico. This would be "passing on" the savings in a manner of speaking.

[Dodongo, APRN, NP]

3 hours ago, myoglobin said:

I agree that quality matters, but also believe that reflexive presumptions as to the quality of the education should be avoided. Rather, metrics such as board pass rates and ultimate success in the field would be better parameters.

The NP boards are far too easy to be useful as a metric of competence. Compare the NP boards to physician boards:

NP:

1 exam lasting 3.5 hours.

Physician:

Step 1 is 8 hours.

Step 2 CK is 9 hours.

Step 2 CS is a day with 12 patient encounters lasting 15 minutes each.

Step 3 is a 2 day test. Day 1 is 7 hours. Day 2 is 9 hours.

And how in the world would we measure "ultimate success in the field"?

[Oldmahubbard]

The Psych NP boards are an absolute joke, for starters

[umbdude, MSN, APRN]

20 hours ago, myoglobin said:

Ultimately, more practitioners and lower costs should equal increased access to care (albeit at the cost of salaries for practitioners such as myself). 

Increasing access is important, but lowering quality and standards for the sake of access in this line of work where patients' lives and well being are on the line is unethical.