Flu Vac, should it be mandatory

boushie87 · Sep 28, 2011

Are you really a nurse that doesn't believe in vaccines? Why exactly?

siafulinux · Sep 28, 2011

it's a pretty well educated guess. the h1n1 flu that became worrisome in 2009 is thought to be the same as the epidemic in 1918 that killed millions of young, healthy people around the world. it took place during wwi and killed more than four years of war did.

this has nothing to do with them guessing about the strain and in the end, educated or not, it is still a guess and you may or may not actually be protected.

last years flu shot combined both the seasonal flu and the h1n1 vaccines. the seasonal flu is the main one that they have to make an educated guess with. logically speaking, if you reduce the number of cases of any kind of flu, the population should be healthier over all.

that depends on what strain of flu for the type is spread this year. if they got it wrong, you still have no protection.

i don't know if the secondary infection was ever definitively identified. my main point with this paragraph was that some of our patients are so immunologically fragile that i am willing to do whatever i can to reduce that risk. people can die if they get the flu. caregivers can transmit the disease before symptoms appear. i would think that the vaccine(s) should be mandatory in the newborn, geriatric and critical care areas at least.

people can also die by tripping and hitting their head on the pavement. should i get a vaccine for that too? that being said, most people die from getting pneumonia as a complication of flu. pneumonia is the main culprit that's killing in this case. i don't think they have to guess on the pneumonia as to what to put into the vaccine, but they do with the flu. hence it makes much better sense to vaccinate against pneumonia to protect the "fragile" than it does to protect against the flu.

the flu shot isn't worth being made (uh, forced) to get it!

while they're at it, just make us wear a scarlet letter or a star on our shoulder to separate us. it's for the greater good, comrades.

amen! i think i might wear an arm band when they make me wear a mask for 12 straight hours that illustrates exactly what i think of the policy. i mean if i have to look for a job to avoid the stupidity why not let them know exactly what i think of it! :)

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Sep 28, 2011

You can get pneumonia without flu and you can get the flu and never get pneumonia either. So it stands to reason that if pneumonia is what's killing most people who get the flu then it's pneumonia that should be vaccinated against as the flu itself is not the main culprit.

Again, not getting into the argument about whether mandatory vaccination is fair or wise. Just addressing your comment above:

Pneumonia is not a specific infection, but a general term to describe a certain kind of infection in the lungs. There is no ONE pneumonia against which to vaccinate.

In a large number of patients, it is the influenza virus itself which attacks the lungs and causes pneumonia. You prevent the pneumonia by preventing influenza infection.

Other times, the influenza predisposes patients to acquiring a secondary bacterial pneumonia. Again, prevent the "predisposition" to the secondary infection by vaccinating against the primary infection which puts the patient in a vulnerable position to begin with. You can give a patient who is sick with influenza antibiotics to prevent a secondary pneumonia, but you have to "guess" which pneumonia they will get and choose your antibiotics accordingly. If you vaccinate against and prevent the influenza infection, the patient has no need for prophylactic antibiotic treatment because they are not sick to begin with.

cherrybreeze, ADN, RN · Sep 28, 2011

I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not it actually protects other's from getting the flu, but even if it did the flu shot is a guessing game based on last year's strain! So I don't see the reason to force it into my body.
Our hospital says it'll also be making this mandatory btw.

FORCE it into your body? You don't have to work where you work. Nobody is tying you down and coming at you with a needle.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/services/boards/Documents/DeclinationFluVaccine.pdf
Wow, so many of you with the put up with it or else position.
Take it or work elsewhere...
So eager to get your shot and make damn sure everyone around you gets it too. You have no clue what is in the vaccine. You didn't grow it. You didn't extract the antigen. Didn't label it, Didn't package it...Sooooo very trusting that you're receiving what they say is in the vial.
Oh, but coming soon to an ER near you: An UN-immunized nurse that could care less what you think should or shouldn't be mandatory. I decline once again...
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/services/boards/Documents/DeclinationFluVaccine.pdf

I'm sorry, this is absolutely ridiculous. Unless you practice that same theory about everything, you're a hypocrite to use it now. Do you ever take a Tylenol? You didn't grow and make and package THAT. Do you give meds to your patients from vials every day? Or does it only apply to you? Do you really think that drug manufacturers are sneaking things only in to vaccines, that make them less trustworthy than ANY other medication out there? Do you eat meat, or eggs, or chicken? Do you grow/raise them yourself, and then butcher them, or do you purchase at the grocery store? Is any of this making the paragraph above seem silly to you?

Everyone against employer-mandated vaccination needs to realize you're not being FORCED. If you are truly THAT against it, work somewhere that it isn't mandatory....those mandates are in place for good reason.

To those who have never had the flu...consider yourself lucky. I had the flu for the first time a couple of years ago, and it is nothing to make light of. I also ended up with pneumonia as a complication. I was lucky in that, I had nothing else wrong with me that would make the course of my illness even worse than it already was. Influenza, and the complications it can bring, can really, truly be deadly. If there are things I can do to prevent it, like get a flu shot, I will absolutely do it. Any side effect the vacc can bring will NOT be as bad as the flu itself. If you don't believe that, then you've never actually had the flu.

Gently.me · Sep 28, 2011

The flu shot isn't worth being made (uh, forced) to get it!
Amen! I think I might wear an arm band when they make me wear a mask for 12 straight hours that illustrates exactly what I think of the policy. I mean if I have to look for a job to avoid the stupidity why not let them know exactly what I think of it! :)

Quite frankly I feel your attitude is poor and selfish. If I were your employer, I would be A ok with you not working in my facility, because it seems, you just don't get it. This is not about politics. Hospitals did not have a secret underground meeting to mandate this so they can infringe your rights. There is an evidenced based purpose and reason behind this.

If you don't like it, see you later. It is your "right" and "choice" to not work there.

siafulinux · Sep 28, 2011

again, not getting into the argument about whether mandatory vaccination is fair or wise. just addressing your comment above:
pneumonia is not a specific infection, but a general term to describe a certain kind of infection in the lungs. there is no one pneumonia against which to vaccinate.

there is also no one influenza to vaccinate against. last i read they can vaccinate against most pneumonia, but not influenza; hence they have to repeatedly vaccinate each year.

force it into your body? you don't have to work where you work. nobody is tying you down and coming at you with a needle.

yes, if i am given an ultimatum of working and taking care of my family and not getting a shot, i am forced to take it. so sure it's not medieval tactics, it's 21st century version of "forcing". to illustrate, would you consider black mailing someone not to be a method of forcing someone to do what you want? i mean after all no one is holding them down to make them do something right? but it's generally a good method to make someone do something they wouldn't orindarily do, right?

******note: i am not saying they are black mailing us to take the vaccine. i state this as i know someone won't read that comment correctly. i am just illustrating the point.******

quite frankly i feel your attitude is poor and selfish. if i were your employer, i would be a ok with you not working in my facility, because it seems, you just don't get it. this is not about politics. hospitals did not have a secret underground meeting to mandate this so they can infringe your rights. there is an evidenced based purpose and reason behind this.

it was said as somewhat of a joke, at my facility i'd probably be laughed at and told to take it off. further such action would probably get me written up and eventually fired. i wouldn't actually go that far though as i do have a family to take care of.

however, i do "get it". i understand the need to help protect individuals, but at the same time i also understand that i should not be "required" to take anything i don't want in my system.

i also don't feel taking a shot is going to be very effective at protecting most people. even if one gets the flu shot, you still have a 10 to 30% chance of getting the flu anyway.

when the 'match' between circulating influenza (flu) viruses and the flu vaccine is close, the flu shot
prevents the flu in about 70 to 90 percent of healthy people younger than 65 years of age. some people who
get the influenza (flu) vaccine may still get the flu. no vaccine, including the flu vaccine, is 100
percent effective. - http://flu.gov/fluexperts.html

then factor in that it's a guessing game as to which strain it's going to be...

a person may be exposed to an influenza virus that is not included in the seasonal flu vaccine. there are many different influenza viruses that circulate every year. the flu shot protects against the 3 viruses
that research suggests will be most common. unfortunately, some people can remain unprotected from flu
despite getting the vaccine. - http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm#whydo

so really? how much does it actually protect? we are going to go round and round with this and the differening opinions, so i'm going to end off with this: my personal opinion is that i just don't feel the flu shot is really as effective as people think and i don't think that being "made" to take the shot is correct.

i also have no problems wearing a mask in a patient's room or when dealing with them, just not the entire 12 hour shift which is a rediculous requirement.

if you don't like it, see you later. it is your "right" and "choice" to not work there.

it should also be my "right" and "choice" as to what i want in my body!

cherrybreeze, ADN, RN · Sep 28, 2011

It should also be my "right" and "choice" as to what I want in MY body!

It IS your "right" and "choice" if you want it in your body or not....and, it is your "right" and "choice" if not being vaccinated is more important than keeping your job. You don't want the vaccine, the alternative is wearing a mask...but you don't want to do that, either. It then becomes your right and choice to find another job.

It is your employer's "right" and "choice" to decide that they want to follow evidence-based practice and have their staff vaccinated as well.

MunoRN, RN · Sep 29, 2011

you can get pneumonia without flu and you can get the flu and never get pneumonia either. so it stands to reason that if pneumonia is what's killing most people who get the flu then it's pneumonia that should be vaccinated against as the flu itself is not the main culprit.

people can also die by tripping and hitting their head on the pavement. should i get a vaccine for that too? that being said, most people die from getting pneumonia as a complication of flu. pneumonia is the main culprit that's killing in this case. i don't think they have to guess on the pneumonia as to what to put into the vaccine, but they do with the flu. hence it makes much better sense to vaccinate against pneumonia to protect the "fragile" than it does to protect against the flu.
the flu shot isn't worth being made (uh, forced) to get it!

there is also no one influenza to vaccinate against. last i read they can vaccinate against most pneumonia, but not influenza; hence they have to repeatedly vaccinate each year.

there is no such thing as a "pneumonia" vaccine. there is the pneumococcal vaccine, which protects against many bacterial causes of pneumonia, but does not protect against viral pneumonias such as influenza. pneumonia is a condition that results from infection, either bacterial, viral, or fungal, and cannot be immunized for in itself. pneumococcal vaccines are an important measure in addition to influenza vaccines, but pneumococcal vaccines do not eliminate the risk of death related to viral pneumonia. just as both smoking cessation and diet modification are important in preventing heart disease, that doesn't mean that if you modify your diet then there is no point in quitting smoking.

hospital acquired influenza is not some benign problem and has a median mortality rate of 17% the general hospital population, increasing to 30-70% in groups at higher risk such as peds and icu patients. overall, influenza kills as many americans nationally as sepsis, would you argue we shouldn't practice aseptic technique with iv's because it's not 100% effective and we can just treat the sepsis we cause with antiobiotics?

you're correct that the flu vaccine is not 100% effective which is why it's so important the everyone who can be vaccinated to do so to maximize it's effectiveness. i'm really at a loss as to what your rationale is for justifying not getting vaccinated based on less than 100% effectiveness, since that's actually why broad vaccination coverage is so important.

MN-Nurse, ASN, RN · Sep 29, 2011

Actually, she has changed the menus at the schools to disallow 'unhealthy' choices. There is no education there..just no choice forced by the government.
BTW, my children are grown. They served and are serving their country in 3 of 4 services. They are healthy. They eat anything they want....but their choices were fruits over candy and milk over soda.
Ya know what happens when you assume.....

Sigh. Please cite evidence where Michelle Obama, acting as an agent of the US government, "forced" any menu changes.

You cannot. Contrary to whatever right wing information stream is telling you, it just doesn't work that way.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Sep 29, 2011

There is also no ONE influenza to vaccinate against. Last I read they can vaccinate against most pneumonia, but not influenza; hence they have to repeatedly vaccinate each year.

That is just flat incorrect.

Gently.me · Sep 29, 2011

I guess it all comes down to this. If I were a higher up executive in a hospital, and I heard that mandating a flu shot will save only ONE life per year, I would still vote to mandate it. That one person deserves no less from my hospital.

Enough with the politics guys. This is about patient care and safety not politics. We owe it to our patients to do everything in our power to keep them healthy. Getting a flu shot will decrease the risk of a hospital transmitting that virus to our immunocompromised. When it comes to percentages, in my book, even if it only helps 0.01% it is still worth it.

Dying from anything lung/respiratory related is not fun to watch, and I can imagine not fun to do. Get the dang shot for them. If it was your grandparent who got the flu virus from a nurse (just so happens to be the one that was in the vaccine that the nurse didn't get because she never got the flu in her life), and died in hospital, wouldn't you see that as the tradgedy it is?

anotherone, BSN, RN · Sep 29, 2011

I work for a facility that is thinking about making the Flu vaccine mandatory in order to work. I personally do not like this idea. I have never gotten the Flu, Pneumonia, or H1N1 for myself or my family. I think that this kind of act is forceful against my free will. It should be my decision not anyone elses. Any thoughts?

Mandatory at my facility. if you can't get it or refuse it you have to wear a mask from sometime between sept-nov(don't remember when) and 2 weeks after the last flu admission/diagnosis!