Fired recently - REALLY need advice!!!

[WhoaNelly]

Let me preface this entry by saying that I am trying to be vague deliberately, as I am a little on the paranoid side of certain people figuring out who I am. I will try to be as succinct as I can, but "keeping it short" is not my strong suite.

Basically, I was working in a specialty practice (large doctor's office with a few locations) up until the end of December, at which time I was fired (worked there less than a year). Now let me give you a little background that led up to this very stressful event: Well, the long and short of it is that starting around July 2008, my suspicion was confirmed that my supervisor was a very mean-spirited person (sociopath I believe) and that such disgusting traits were starting to be targeted towards me - for what reason I still just don't know. Well, actually, I think a good bit of it may very well have been jealousy over finding out that I had something in my personal life that many nurses, actually just many women, would be quite envious of. Or it could have been some of the "smarts" I displayed at work. I don't know. Nonetheless, I am a kind person who's most always smiling and trying to make othes laugh. In other words, there is just no good reason for a regular person not to like me.

Well, as the months progressed, I noticed that this wench seemed to be targeting me more and more, very much singling me out, being very hypercritical. And I mean it got more and more petty as time went on. But here's the thing...this evil turd very rarely just addressed these "issues" with me directly. Instead, she would always magnify, and even distort, whatever the issue was and proceed to tell the director. She would never be overtly hateful/too critical to my face - a b!h of the worst kind!!!

It really just got to the point of harrassment to the point that most of the other staff knew about it. It became really stressful as you can imagine, going to work everyday walking on eggshells. As busy as this place was, I saw several times where this turd actually made the time to hyper-scrutize me, just looking for ANYTHING she could possibly stretch into something that she could get me into trouble for, while all along letting others "get a pass" for things she was singling me out for.

Well, I won't go on and on about this, especially since I am not comfortable posting the details of these events as I said. However, if you would like to hear more of the details, I will discuss it further via PM. I'll just conclude by saying that in the end, it was such a nasty termination - the evil supervisor even told the director a bold-faced lie about me. Let me also say that this organization has a pretty significant history of high staff turnover too. But I actually thought about filing a lawsuit for wrongful termination, mainly because I informed the director of this ongoing harrassment on more than one occassion - and nothing was done about it. Instead, I get hung out to dry. I'm still considering consulting with an employment attorney, but some of the best evidence I thought I had may not be sufficient (I had brought a tape recorder and put it in my pocket during one of the disciplinary meetings - but the damn thing cut off just a little bit too soon!).

So the advice I *really* need from you guys is: How do I handle answering the question "Have you ever been fired from a job?" on my next job application? And then, if I do even get an interview, how do I explain this situation without committing the proverbial "never bad-mouth former employers" tenet? I have been greatly stressed over all of this, feeling like I am finished. One last note to consider is that I am thinking about applying with the employer I had just before going to work for this craphole - I left there on a good note too.

I'd love to hear about any similar experiences you all have had or know someone who's had and the outcomes. However, ANY advice is welcome!!!!

[ANnot4me]

Sorry for the late response WN, I somehow lost track of this thread. I had transferred from one department to another and my first manager (who was my boss for three years) said not to worry about it and just give her name as a reference. Not a problem. Also, I worked there for over three years and was fired after only a few months in the new deparment. I would hope that anyone concerned would use their critical thinking skills to gain some perspective.

I look back on it now and I was so, so traumatized. It is like this hold soicety had on me and I would never be the same again. I have since learned to play the game and know to trust my instincts about people and places. When it comes down to it, it is just a job and the fact that I lasted this long in a profession that chews people up and spits them out is amazing.

If you allow yourself time to gain perspective and know that you have been wrongly treated, it shines through and people will never know. I was thrown out of the military for being gay and they told me it would ruin me. I was 19 and believed it for some time. Now I break out those papers at parties and I am proud: I am not the one who should be ashamed...

[diane227, LPN, RN]

Did you get disciplinary action in writing? When you reported her to your director, did you do it in writing and do you have a copy of the complaint? What was the exact reason they gave for your termination? Did you file a grievance or go to mediation? If so, what was the outcome?

It is tricky to deal with this in a future job interview. You absolutely do not want to bad mouth your previous employer and DO NOT tell them that you had a conflict with your last supervisor. I have never been terminated from a job but as a manager I have had to evaluate potential employees that had been terminated. Were I ever terminated I believe that my response would be that my goals and expectations simply did not fuse with the organization I was working for...and leave it at that. The potential employer might want some details but you have to be as general as possible such as "it was not a positive working environment" and "the patients were not treated in a manner that was up to my standards of nursing care". "it was termination by mutual consent". In terms of legal action, first of all you have to decide if you want a job back with that organization? Do you really want to spend all that money and go through all the trouble to take legal action? It is my recommendation that you let it go and just try to go forward. You need to make sure that you dress in a very professional manner, have an up to date resume and go to that interview with confidence but not arrogant. Good luck.

[GrumpyRN63, ADN, RN]

I don't think they ask if you've ever been fired as usually you don't fill out an application, but submit a resume. You need to leave out the issues/differences altogether. Many of us have had psycho managers. In my state anyway, they can only verify dates of employment and your references certainly do not need to include the psych case, just people you have worked with that can validate your work ethic. You should go with the " looking for more of a challenge", "dynamic work environment", " have always wanted to work in xyz' etc. Never bring up the manager, toxic environment, staffing issues etc.

[WhoaNelly]

Sorry for the late response WN, I somehow lost track of this thread. I had transferred from one department to another and my first manager (who was my boss for three years) said not to worry about it and just give her name as a reference. Not a problem. Also, I worked there for over three years and was fired after only a few months in the new deparment. I would hope that anyone concerned would use their critical thinking skills to gain some perspective.

I look back on it now and I was so, so traumatized. It is like this hold soicety had on me and I would never be the same again. I have since learned to play the game and know to trust my instincts about people and places. When it comes down to it, it is just a job and the fact that I lasted this long in a profession that chews people up and spits them out is amazing.

If you allow yourself time to gain perspective and know that you have been wrongly treated, it shines through and people will never know. I was thrown out of the military for being gay and they told me it would ruin me. I was 19 and believed it for some time. Now I break out those papers at parties and I am proud: I am not the one who should be ashamed...

I'm so sorry you had to go through this pain, but glad you overcame. You described this profession perfectly...chews people up and then spits them out.

One really doesn't have a choice but to change their approach to others in the workplace...I simply must stop giving people the benefit of the doubt that maybe they are having a bad day or whatever and start seeing the evil folks for who they are. And never let my guard down around these fools.

[agatha777]

Dear WhoaNelly:

Here's the deal: most if not ALL employers are paranoid of potential litigation. When any employee gripes VERBALLY ONLY about anything that could potentially be a basis for litigation to anyone at work (co-worker, HR, etc.), they start a campaign to discredit the employee and make them appear to be incompetent, "the problem," crazy, etc. and launch a secret effort to get them to quit or create a basis to fire them. They may even try to use the office social network to make the employee feel to be the "odd girl out" so she will quit (which means she won't receive unemployment). Don't lie about being fired, but don't make it sound like you were AWARE you had a potential reason to litigate against your past employer. New employers don't want to hire anyone who knows too much about their rights and seems like someone willing to assert them. Remember, your NEW employer will also be paranoid about potential litigation risks. Here's the scoop: when an employee simply complains VERBALLY, there is no RECORD of wrongs (the employer can simply deny them) and the employee simply opens themselves up to sneaky employer termination tactics without having the benefit of job protection. However, when an employee files a WRITTEN complaint to HR (e-mail or fax a follow-up copy to HR as well so they can't deny they received it), the employer MUST keep the employee on staff or risk giving the employee a pretty clear right to sue in the future for retalliatory wrongful termination. Of course, that employee must continue to do a good job and not do anything outrageously wrong. So only invoke this step IF it's a job you want to stay in for a long time. If you don't really want that job, don't waste your "written complaint card" on that employer because the fact you filed a written complaint will follow you forever (people always talk behind the scenes no matter what the law says). As far as what former employers can discuss about you to people who call for a reference, what the law says and what employers actually DO are 2 different things. It all depends on who the caller is. If both persons on the phone are "on the same page" and won't tell anyone about the content of their conversation is: the sky's the limit. There are also IN PERSON conversations on the golf course, at brunch, etc. Most managers in HR departments in the same field in the same town know or know of each other and play this game to assist each other. HR will probably only give name, rank and serial number to a caller whom they don't know, however. If you are thinking about suing them, or are curious to know what lies they are telling prospective employers who call for a reference, you can contact www.allisontaylor.com and for a fee they will have an anonymous caller act like they are looking for a reference on you. Also, Allison Taylor will keep a record of the contents of the phone call on file for a year (or more with a paid extension) that will hold up in a court of law (which might be a better bet than hiring a friend or private eye to do the same). However, it's probably not in your best interests to sue them because (1) word of your filing a lawsuit WILL get all over town and especially within the field and make you unhirable, (2) it keeps you thinking about all the negativity and not worth the 30 pounds you will gain from stress, and (3) you'll still have to shell out money to a lawyer for deposition and expert fees (even if your case is a contingency case). It's probably best to move on from this one. KNOW THIS, YOU DID NOTHING WRONG, THEY WERE AFRAID YOU HAD A GOOD CASE TO FILE A WRITTEN COMPLAINT AND SO THEY PLAYED GAMES WITH YOU AND ALSO PRE-EMPTIVELY TERMINATED YOU (AND WRONGFULLY TOO) BEFORE YOUR VERBAL COMPLAINTS COULD BECOME WRITTEN ONES THAT WOULD HAVE SECURED YOU IN YOUR JOB. In your NEXT job, be prepared to FILE A WRITTEN, DOCUMENTABLY-RECEIVED COMPLAINT against your future employer (IF you want to stay there indefinitely) for documented, actionable wrongs they undoubtedly will commit. Employers do litigatable things to all their employees weekly...that's why they're so paranoid. Their "solution" is to weed out employees who seem likely to complain in writing before they DO so. Co-workers looking to stab others in the back will share your verbal complaints to HR or those close to HR, so that HR will weed you out, so do not complain to co-workers, they will simply use the information you share with them as collateral to prove their sick loyalty to management (for their own sick job security). These types have a certain type of "job security" which comes from ass-kissing and helping their employer avoid litigation they don't deserve to avoid), not from filing a lawful written complaint about a documentable wrong by the employer. Which type of employee would you rather be? At least those who rightfully complain in writing about documentable wrongs at work are gradually improving the workplace for all of us. Kiss-ups are actually worsening the workplace environment and making it toxic, allowing unethical employment practices to flourish. Here's how employers think: When employees complain VERBALLY, they worry the employee may complain in WRITING soon, making them practically un-firable (presuming the employee doesn't begin poor work practices or do anything totally outrageous after that). So, the employer builds a fake case against the employee (often using unethical and even MORE actionable means!). The paradox is, if you like you job and want to keep it, then file a WRITTEN complaint when they mess up -- and they WILL mess up - they always do. If you DON'T like your job anyway, and you WANT to get fired so you can receive unemployment, then complain to your friends, co-workers and/or HR ONLY VERBALLY and they will secretly launch a plan for your unfair dismissal and then you can receive unemployment. You can still tell the truth to future employers about having gotten the sack, just use a little humor, don't dwell on it during the interview, have a pat answer prepared that does not give your interviewer the impression you were a litigation risk for your former employer (and thus, may be one for them). Or, if you don't like your job anyway and don't care if you receive unemployment either, locate another job by interviewing behind their backs (still never say anything bad about your current employer -- especially if it sounds like it's something ACTIONABLY-BAD about your current employer -- this will spook your interviewer), and change jobs.

[agatha777]

P.S. AFTER fiilng your WRITTEN complaint at your next job (presuming you like it and want to keep it), be prepared for the possibility that your employer may try to make life miserable for you so that you quit on your own. However, having proven yourself litigation savvy by filing the written complaint, it's more likely your employer will start being nice to you and acting like you walk on water. Continue to do a great job, be nice and pleasant, and enjoy your safe employment. Don't let your work product fall, don't whine verbally to co-workers about your employer, continue to be an asset, and try to forgive them and all the creeps you worked for in the past for being paranoid jerks who will unethically throw any employee under the bus and lie about them and their work product to save their unworthy skins. IF they should go the other route, however, keep documenting things in case you need to file a future lawsuit (should they have the nards to fire you wrongfully ANYWAY, or cause you to quit (constructive discharge)). Forward e-mails that document their mistreatment and/or your GOOD WORK PRODUCT to your personal email account for safekeeping, then double delete them at work. Do not open your personal email account at work. Print out and take home other types of documentation secretely when necessary. Go out and buy a DIGITAL tape recorder at Radio Shack or somewhere to wear in your bra or something when people are VERBALLY saying actionable things at work. These things can record all day long and the file can be downloaded to your home PC for safekeeping in case you need it. Chances are they will treat you nicely after you file your WRITTEN complaint, however. If your employer is stupid enough to fire you based on flimsy reasons (they usually choose to attack an employee's "work product"), you'll have the backup to prove otherwise and then, go ahead and sue them. Use only an employment law attorney, not one who does DUI's and car accidents or just because your uncle knows them, etc. Be prepared to have about $5,000 to 20,000 set aside for miscellaneous expenses throughout the lawsuit period (you'll get all that back, and much more at settlement). More than likely you won't have to go to trial, they'll settle on the court steps days or hours beforehand. They may settle sooner than that if they feel their case is weak. Then, you won't need to find another job and can write books (about them and their ilk) or start your own business. NO NEED TO BE DEPRESSED, IT WASN'T YOU, IT WAS THEIR PARANOID, UNETHICAL ASSES.

[HM2VikingRN, RN]

I survived a bullying/mobbing.I ended up losing my professional position but was accepted to nursing school. I worked nights and did schoolwork on their time. I am currently working for the VA so I know there was a thorough background check. Anyway I ended up with a 30% payraise so there is life after bullying. I have received a lot of support and validation from my boss (who was bullied in her first nursing job.) I went from working for a psychopath to a really good work group. There is life after bullying.

[hollyvk, BSN]

Agatha,

A couple of brief points:

1) Paragraphs are a good thing :nuke: cuz they make your info much easier to read.

2) Not all employers shy away from releasing "fired for cause" info. The largest hospital employer in the US has a posted policy about how termination info is to be coded in their HR system and what info will be released to other potential employers. Their view is that other employers are entitled to know the true status of the former employee's work separation from them. And they are apparently sufficiently secure in using this process that they are not fearful of litigation. http://ec.hcahealthcare.com/CPM/HROP028.doc

[kcochrane]

tell me, did you collect unemployment? that is an indicator you were fired. if not you can say you resigned due to the need to further your career.

i don't know if someone addressed this..have a few more pages to read...but that is not necessarily true. in some states you cannot collect unemployment if you are fired for misconduct.

you were fired because your employer alleged that you violated a company policy, rule or procedure, such as absenteeism or insubordination; because of a disagreement or dispute with a boss or co-worker; or you were fired for any other reason.

this is nys.

my husband mutually parted ways with his workplace, but they considered it as firing and tried to contest it. he fought it and eventually got his unemployment.

if a workplace asked why you collected unemployment here are some answers you could use:

you lost your job due to lack of work: the temporary or seasonal employment ended; your job was eliminated; there was an involuntary reduction in force; the company downsized or shutdown; the company restructured or reorganized, there was a lack of company operating funds/orders; or for any other business operating reason which resulted in your involuntary unemployment.

you were discharged or fired because you were unable to meet employer performance or production standards, or you were unable to meet employer's qualifications for the job.

i know if most cases, employers will only give out the dates someone worked and that's it. there are afraid of lawsuits if someone is given a bad name - unless there they were prosecuted (i.e. stealing)

[ozoneranger]

I'd be willing to bet that other clinics are wise to the high turn over with your former employer. I bet they know why too.

Nurses don't leave in droves unless there's a problem.

Hold your head up & know you did your best.

Karma will catch up with the witch that fired you.

[LaRN]

When it comes down to it, it is just a job and the fact that I lasted this long in a profession that chews people up and spits them out is amazing.

HIGH FIVE!

So true. Many times I've seen supervisors fire good nurses and praise the ones who aren't safe enough to work at a sno cone stand, simply because of a preference or conflict of personality.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

i'm sure i'm going to be very unpopular here, but i always have to wonder when someone tells us they were fired or mobbed or bullied or victimized just because they're so darned wonderful that everyone else is jealous of them. our mothers all told us when we were in elementary school that the girls who were mean to us were "just jealous," but it's rarely that simple. and we're rarely that innocent. i would encourage you to take a long, hard look at what you've contributed to the mess that led to your firing . . . it may not be as simple as your supervisor being jealous of your enviable personal life. as you state yourself, there are an inordinate amount of people in this world who have issues they're not even aware of. maybe you do, too.

one clue that leads me to believe it's not all the evil supervisor's fault is your denigrating language about her. could it be that you gave her reason to suspect that you didn't respect her?

another red flag is that you seem to be convinced that you're so smart it's a major effort for you not to show up everyone around you. really? it's been my experience that the knowledge base of a person is pretty much inversely proportional to how much they think they know. those who think they know everything don't, and those who think they have a lot to learn know more than they think they do.

you seem to have a lot of "insight" about other people who have issues with "innocent bystanders who have some great quality or accomplishment. that's just one more way of saying "she hates me because i'm beautiful," or "she doesn't like me because i'm so much smarter than she is." the supervisor was the one who was in charge -- she must have had some good qualities to get there.

i could be wrong -- maybe you are as innocent, wonderful and enviable as you say you are. i just cannot help but think there was more to it than one supervisor being a sociopath, and i hope you give it some thought, too.

thank you guys so much for all of your great advice and support. i used to visit this site quite frequently and now i remember why.

i definitely hear what some of your guys are saying about not coming off as too smart, especially as the new person onboard. i have always been acutely aware of how i come off to others, actually for just that reason. throughout my life, i have observed that there is definitely an inordinate number of people in this world who truly do have "issues" (and the kicker...) that they are not even aware of.

in my experience, those folks usually tend to be some of the nastiest ones, preferring/choosing to just react to any negative feelings that another person may inadvertently elicit within themselves instead of taking the time to probe and discover why such feelings are so easily, and inappropriately, elicited. and all the other person (the innocent bystander) is guilty of is possessing some great quality or accomplishment. i mean, hey, we all know that a "gloater" is a different story altogether.

i would actually describe my natural way of relating with others as one that downplays any outstanding qualities i have, for fear of appearing in any way, shape, or form a gloater. i'm talkin' to the point of almost putting as much energy and focus into not upsetting others than the actual dialogue itsself. sad really.

sorry - i told you guys i was a little brevity-challenged

while i still wrestle almost daily with feelings of being victimized, as well as being stigmatized like chigap was saying, i just want to move forward at this point.

i think some of you guys were possibly alluding to the idea that i should just leave this off my application/resume? then i have to deal with the whole fairly big employment gap thing.

also, another big stumper: the employer where i was before crapsville is where i want to reapply (in a different dept.). their online application does specifically ask the question "were you ever fired from a job before?". while i did like what traumarus said about just skipping it, i think it may be one of those things where you are forced to answer or it will not allow you to proceed (i'll check on that). but here's the other thing...i'm not sure what the manager wrote in my employee file as to why/how i was leaving. long story short (i mean it this time :), i put in my 2 weeks as a ft employee before starting at amityville and staying on as prn for another month or 2. but, i simply could not meet all the requirements (annual nurse testing and constant stream of tutorials, health screens, etc. and barely met the minimal time requirements for prn status - had a significant health problem that lasted for several months). so what i'm getting to is that i think i have to tell them on the application that i worked there because it may be in my file already (or something to the effect of leaving for another job elsewhere). on one positive note, there is one md there who has offered to give me a good reference.

how do i talk about this without sounding like a victim?

i'm sorry ya'll for being so needy. i've just been so distraught & gravely depressed that it's been hard to think clearly about this. not only that, i also figured that nurses love to problem-solve and most are darn good at it.

whatever thoughts/additional comments you guys have....please send 'em my way. and thank you again in advance!!

[

let me preface this entry by saying that i am trying to be vague deliberately, as i am a little on the paranoid side of certain people figuring out who i am. i will try to be as succinct as i can, but "keeping it short" is not my strong suite.

basically, i was working in a specialty practice (large doctor's office with a few locations) up until the end of december, at which time i was fired (worked there less than a year). now let me give you a little background that led up to this very stressful event: well, the long and short of it is that starting around july 2008, my suspicion was confirmed that my supervisor was a very mean-spirited person (sociopath i believe) and that such disgusting traits were starting to be targeted towards me - for what reason i still just don't know. well, actually, i think a good bit of it may very well have been jealousy over finding out that i had something in my personal life that many nurses, actually just many women, would be quite envious of. or it could have been some of the "smarts" i displayed at work. i don't know. nonetheless, i am a kind person who's most always smiling and trying to make othes laugh. in other words, there is just no good reason for a regular person not to like me.

well, as the months progressed, i noticed that this wench seemed to be targeting me more and more, very much singling me out, being very hypercritical. and i mean it got more and more petty as time went on. but here's the thing...this evil turd very rarely just addressed these "issues" with me directly. instead, she would always magnify, and even distort, whatever the issue was and proceed to tell the director. she would never be overtly hateful/too critical to my face - a b!h of the worst kind!!!

it really just got to the point of harrassment to the point that most of the other staff knew about it. it became really stressful as you can imagine, going to work everyday walking on eggshells. as busy as this place was, i saw several times where this turd actually made the time to hyper-scrutize me, just looking for anything she could possibly stretch into something that she could get me into trouble for, while all along letting others "get a pass" for things she was singling me out for.

well, i won't go on and on about this, especially since i am not comfortable posting the details of these events as i said. however, if you would like to hear more of the details, i will discuss it further via pm. i'll just conclude by saying that in the end, it was such a nasty termination - the evil supervisor even told the director a bold-faced lie about me. let me also say that this organization has a pretty significant history of high staff turnover too. but i actually thought about filing a lawsuit for wrongful termination, mainly because i informed the director of this ongoing harrassment on more than one occassion - and nothing was done about it. instead, i get hung out to dry. i'm still considering consulting with an employment attorney, but some of the best evidence i thought i had may not be sufficient (i had brought a tape recorder and put it in my pocket during one of the disciplinary meetings - but the damn thing cut off just a little bit too soon!).

so the advice i *really* need from you guys is: how do i handle answering the question "have you ever been fired from a job?" on my next job application? and then, if i do even get an interview, how do i explain this situation without committing the proverbial "never bad-mouth former employers" tenet? i have been greatly stressed over all of this, feeling like i am finished. one last note to consider is that i am thinking about applying with the employer i had just before going to work for this craphole - i left there on a good note too.

i'd love to hear about any similar experiences you all have had or know someone who's had and the outcomes. however, any advice is welcome!!!!