Fired all the LPN's

laydiebuug · Sep 30, 2009

I am in the MD/DC/VA area and LPN are having a hard time finding jobs as well, in the washington metro area in MD you can forget about being hired in a hospital as anything except a tech, all the urgent care centers use MA's and everyone wants magnet status which I think is fine. I want to pursue my RN however, getting into school in this area is the issue, my aunt has been sitting on a waiting list at one of the community colleges for like two years to get into the RN program her Pre-req's are done and MD is strict about online nursing courses and VA only has 4 online schools that are approved right now. So for many of us here in this area its not that we don't want our RN there are not enough programs or teachers:banghead:

kayemom · Sep 30, 2009

Several years ago our hospital "fired" all the LPNs to go to an all RN model. Well, it took a few years before someone figured out that it was a lot cheaper to hire LPNs, who can do most of what an RN can do. SO they rehired LPNs. Now we have a new DON, who says our LPNs have been practicing above their acope of practice and now they are assigned to passing meds and a few treatments/procedures that LPNs are allowed to do. It has caused quite a stir and most are looking for other jobs. So where will that leave the RNs??? Much busier and the hospital will be paying out more $$ - Don't they ever learn from previous experiences?? :banghead:

freezebaby · Sep 30, 2009

While being an LPN can be a stepping stone to becoming an RN, it doesn't have to be. I just finished my LPN program in May. Do I want to go back to school to become an RN? Yes. Can I afford it? No. The main reason that no one ever seems to talk about that I decided to go the LPN route instead of RN is because RN school is sooo competitive. I went to a school with an RN BSN program and I had a 3.8 GPA but I was afraid I wasn't going to get in because of the small number of students they accept into the program. I didn't feel like sitting on a waiting list racking up debt for 6 years so I thought it's better to get something done. I am from Minnesota and my employer chose me to fill one of 14 positions in home health in Hawaii. I get paid the exact same amount as the RN's who work for this company. Some of the RN's have absolutely no health care experience aside from clinicals. Home health and long term care are real careers!! What if I don't want to work in a hospital? I love my job and as much as I want to be an RN, if it never happened I still think what I'm doing is valuable. People need to realize that hospitals are not the only places nurses work. There are different kinds of nursing and they suit different people. I will happily squat on my degree so I can be smart about going back to school by saving money first instead of getting more student loans. I do what I do because I love the people I take care of. I get a free apartment, free car, free gas, and free food. There are jobs out there for LPN's. Oh and did I mention I get to live in Hawaii?!?! I would much rather do this than work at any hospital in Minnesota.

FranEMTnurse, CNA, LPN, EMT-I · Sep 30, 2009

This is so arrogant and blatantly wrong. I am angered that the facility did not even give the LPNs the opportunity to go back to school if they chose to do so. In the end, it will cost the facility more to recruit and orient and new RNs than it would have to provided some sort of tuition reimbursement in order to retain the experienced LPNs. Oh, sure, in the short term this might seem like a brilliant idea---after all, a new graduate RN who has been hunting for a job and is discouraged might accept a lower base pay rate than an LPN with years of experience. But in the long run---karma might bite this employer in the backside. Word will get around how poorly the LPNs have been treated and, quite honestly, when the economy changes and a nursing shortage starts up again---and it will---nurses may not want to work there because of the poor way others were treated.
The professional, humane and INTELLIGENT way to have dealt with this would have been to announce the nursing reorganization when it was in its planning stages, to have LPNs on the committee to determine how to best retain LPNs who wanted to stay and go into RN programs. Those who didn't want to go back to school should have been offered early retirement or reassignment, say, to a clinic or LTC. To pull a stunt like this on veteran employees and give them such short notice during a recession is nothing short of evil. (Betcha there was a ginormous bonus for the administrator who came up with this idea!)
To the OP: I am curious---did this facility by any chance hire any new RN graduates to fill the nursing vacancies that were anticipated with the firing of all the LPNs? I have a hunch the answer is a great, big NO.
Oh, yeah, and this is a brilliant move with the H1N1 pandemic. :icon_roll Yep, just when there's a very real possibility that there will be a widespread flu that causes fatalities in otherwise healthy young people, a flu that might increase the bed demand in many health care facilities, let's fire all the LPNs. The remaining RNs can make do with what they have. :angryfire
BTW, I also think it is completely wrong for an institution to provide clinical space for a nursing program if it has no intention whatsoever of hiring that program's graduates. There may be some places, some specialties that require RNs rather than LPNs. I can understand that. But if LPNs are not used in the institution in any capacity whatsoever, it's definitely a mixed message to say that students in practical nursing programs are "good enough" to be at that facility for clinicals but not "good enough" to work there as LPNs.

What goes around comes around, and that is going to come around and bite those administrators in a bad way! I say, well earned!!!

Moogie · Sep 30, 2009

Perhaps we need to rethink LPNs altogether. Now don't go flame me....patients everywhere are sicker and their clinical needs are more complex.

Who's next to go - Associate degree nurses?

If health care is indeed becoming so complex that institutions feel a need to have all-RN staffing (particularly all-BSN staffing) then they need to start lobbying for entry to practice laws that will end the multiple levels of educational preparation and establish the BSN as the appropriate educational level for entry to professional nursing with the ADN the entry level for technical nursing. If the trend REALLY is going to all-RN staffing, why is there such a proliferation of NEW practical nursing programs? (Hint: money, money, money!) It seems to me that if the health care industry so badly wants RN staffing, it should lobby for closer control of the growth of programs that produce graduates that they will not hire. Don't permit new practical nursing programs to open; gradually work to decrease the number of current programs while increasing the size and number of RN programs at either the professional (BSN) level or the technical level (ADN). If the health care industry no longer wants to hire LPNs, then it is wrong for programs that are considered "obsolete" to continue to take students' money. If this is really the direction health care is going, then for goodness' sake, let's get some direction in nursing education and end this cycle of new grads glutting the market only to find no jobs or lay-offs in the future. If health care institutions honestly want better-educated nurses, then they'd best DO SOMETHING at the educational level so no student wastes his/her time and money on an obsolete educational program.

Nursing has been bickering about this since 1964. 1964! The only state, so far, to mandate the BSN had to rescind the requirement because of a shortage of baccalaureate-educated nurses. Maybe entry to practice needs to happen at a federal, rather than state, level. One of the problems in North Dakota was that non-baccalaureate grads would go to border states to work and there weren't enough BSN grads to meet institutional needs. The best answer that some in our government can come up with is to permit health care institutions to more aggressively recruit foreign-educated nurses; they claim that foreign-educated nurses are better prepared because most have baccalaureate degrees. Why not invest in US programs instead? Quit outsourcing nursing education!

And fund scholarships, for goodness' sake. Health care facilities that are so insistent on all-RN (or all-BSN) staffing should put their money where their mouths are and offer scholarships to baccalaureate programs for their employees and families of their employees, to high school students and second-degree students in their areas. Work with colleges and universities to create positions in which clinical experts could have joint appointment as clinical faculty and bedside nurses and make sure these nurses are paid adequately; this would help ease the shortage of clinical instructors and possibly allow BSN programs to admit more students.

At any rate, the debate has been going on for longer than many nurses have been alive! As tired as I am of nursing not being able to make up its collective mind, I am completely frustrated with the health care industry who keeps waffling about these issues. Make a decision, people, and STICK WITH IT. Yeah, administrators and bean counters, policy wonks who know "everything" about nursing but don't know their backsides from a bedpan---I'm talking to YOU. If you want the change, lobby for it. Work constructively. Don't just capriciously announce that you're laying off you LPNs without giving them an opportunity to get additional education. Don't permit students to have clinicals in your facilities if you have no intention of ever hiring those students to work in your facilities. It's exploitive, it's abusive and it's WRONG.

Moreover, when there is a shortage---and there will be another---there always is---the health care industry needs to quit looking for the quick fix. Understand that shortages are cyclical. Work to retain staff, to RETRAIN staff if necessary. Don't just start screaming that the sky is falling, the dam is breaking, there's another shortage so let's open a whole bunch of practical nursing programs to pump out a whole bunch of students as quickly as possible---then dump them out when the shortage is over. Pump 'n Dump. That's exactly the way the health industry reacts to nursing shortages and, as a nurse, I am fed up.

Pharmacy, physical therapy, occupational therapy all require practice doctorates as entry to practice. Do we see this sort of nonsense happening in those disciplines? Yet nursing has been quibbling about entry to practice for HOW many years again?

Moogie · Sep 30, 2009

I am in the MD/DC/VA area and LPN are having a hard time finding jobs as well, in the washington metro area in MD you can forget about being hired in a hospital as anything except a tech, all the urgent care centers use MA's and everyone wants magnet status which I think is fine. I want to pursue my RN however, getting into school in this area is the issue, my aunt has been sitting on a waiting list at one of the community colleges for like two years to get into the RN program her Pre-req's are done and MD is strict about online nursing courses and VA only has 4 online schools that are approved right now. So for many of us here in this area its not that we don't want our RN there are not enough programs or teachers:banghead:

This is what frustrates me whenever I see new practical nursing programs sprouting up. One of the reasons it's so hard to get into BSN programs is that there's a lack of faculty. If the resources that went into starting new practical nursing programs went instead into baccalaureate programs, the BSN programs might be able to accommodate more students, thus decreasing outrageously long wait-lists and increasing the number of new baccalaureate-prepared grads ever year. I suspect that many of the for-profit schools where we see the proliferation of new nursing programs pay better wages than do state colleges and universities, thus siphoning off faculty who could be working in BSN programs. (So get real and start paying baccalaureate faculty better! Facilitate the process to help aspiring nurse educators to get advanced degrees. No, don't lower the standards but make higher education accessible and affordable. Why are those concepts so hard to grasp?)

I hope that every new grad who wants a job will be able to find one and that those who want to advance their education in either LPN to RN or BSN programs, entry level programs, advanced level programs, can do so.

fridayannelpn1974 · Sep 30, 2009

I understand the jist of the idea to get nurses on a more professional level in the medical realm. Having a BSN as a RN requirement would serve to elevate the profession in a sense. I have a BSN, but lately as far as a job qualification, it seems to mean not much more than diddley! And I do agree respect of workers seems to be at an all time low. Truely jungle time out there.

From Fridayanne---

There is nothing about a bunch of letters next to your name that elevates you to professional. I have run into a LOT of Rn's who are nothing more than pencil pushers. At our long term facility the state requires an Rn. sign off on our admission assesments. And they require an Rn sign off on care plans etc. etc. These Rn's don't even read these forms -- they just sign them. The LPN's fill them out. What's up with that? We are also required to have an Rn sign off on pronouncing death. Many other states only require 2 licensed nurses to pronoune death. Thus 2 LPN's are sufficient. I have been a nurse for 35 years and I have NEVER been wrong as to whether a pt. was dead or not. P_L_E_A_S_E !!! I am sick and tired or Rn's who have what I call RNitis. Just because they spent a lot more time and a lot more money getting their initials behind their names, doesn't mean they are any better nurses, than the ones of us who have been in the "field" for years. Where I work (Long term care facility), the Rn's are only needed to sign off on Medicare forms and to do PICC lines - which most LPN's are totally capable of doing, but the state knows if they approve us that there would not be any need for Rn"s in the building. H-m-m-m-m? The board of nursing is made up of RN's. Lpn's have been managing LTC patients for years. I have even had physican's call me and ask - What did the patient die of? I can usually tell them and they trust me to give them the correct diagnosis. These physicans and nurse practioneers are in the building --maybe 2-3 times a month. They are not assessing these patients. They DEPEND on the Lowly LPN's to tell them what is going on! I am sick of RN's who think they are the only one with a brain in the facilty. Most Bsn nurses can't be bothered to change a "poopy" brief and don't know diddly squat about their patients. But they can hang a PICC IV. WOW! I guess there is a place for everyone in Nursing. Just don't slam the LPN who is doing actual NURSING care- not just paperwork! I still love to actually have patient contact, which many Rn's don't. I just rejected an order for a pt. for physical therapy R/t a new shoe. The only problem is that the patient has has a double above the knee amputation..WRONG PATIENT! Just to show even Nurse Practioners. ie RN's can make mistakes. So what you call professional is only initials behind the name. DOES'NT MEAN ANYTHING. An Rn can mess up a patient as well as any other nurse! They need to conduct a course in RNitis in all schools.Listen to to nurses whos spend 8 hours a day with these patients! BE KIND! PAY ATTENTION!!!! THANKS! LAURIE

walk6miles · Sep 30, 2009

Somehow I am not surprised. Administration in most hospitals I have worked in are always guilty of mistreating LPN's. It is amazing that they encourage the LPN to do more and more (never out of scope of practice but close).

At one hospital, they gave the RN's a raise and did NOT give the LPN's the same.

Morals? Ethics? Principles? The only thing most hospitals understand is UNION. I suggest your group get together; pick out some leaders; continue to look for work elsewhere (never, never give up).... and, don't get angry - get even! Write the Governor; write the Board of Directors, find a local newspaper reporter who is sympathetic....let the public know how you were treated...safety is an issue at that facility! Work it!!

Keep us in the loop! God bless.

CapeCodMermaid, RN · Sep 30, 2009

LPNs go to school in Massachusetts for 10 months...a far cry from the (at least) 2 years of RN school. To compare the difference between an RN BSN or AD to the difference between RN and LPN is ridiculous. As someone who graduated from a hospital based program after getting a bachelor's degree, I was far better prepared to take care of real patients than those who spent 4 years in a BSN program. Again, let's not have turf wars. We need to stick together as RNs whatever our educational background to insure the best possible care for the patients we are taking care of today.

EverNurseRN · Sep 30, 2009

lpns go to school in massachusetts for 10 months...a far cry from the (at least) 2 years of rn school. to compare the difference between an rn bsn or ad to the difference between rn and lpn is ridiculous. as someone who graduated from a hospital based program after getting a bachelor's degree, i was far better prepared to take care of real patients than those who spent 4 years in a bsn program. again, let's not have turf wars. we need to stick together as rns whatever our educational background to insure the best possible care for the patients we are taking care of today.

here in indiana, lpns go to school for 12 straight months after doing their pre-reqs. the adn rn programs are 4 semesters with summers off so 16 months. the lpn program is full time 5 days a week. the rn programs are part time 3 days a week. it's so weird because the lpn grads finish their degree with more clinical hours and more theory than the adn programs...yea, i know, doesn't make any sense.

ms.ludes · Sep 30, 2009

As horrible as this is, it is happening more and more. The hospital where I have been working for two years no longer hires LPN's, frowns upon those who still work there as LPN's who don't want to continue on for the RN, and what I think worst of all, I have worked there for two years while going to school, they have paid my tuition, and they wont fire me becasue I am only going to be and ADN. No job is safe. WATCH YOUR BACKS!!

pagandeva2000, LPN · Oct 1, 2009

The reason why I chose to 'sit on my license' is because I am not that impressed on what I see going on with the RN licensure. They have more responsibilities than they can safely handle, because they make more money, many times, their benefits are less than what I receive right now. Just the other day, my nursing supervisor told me that before their new contract, she paid a $60 co-payment for a three month script of HTN medications and now, she is paying a whopping $205 for the same meds. They cut their holidays, short term disability and even their eyeglass and dental plans...so, the raise was not really a raise. And, recently, her daughter has developed a chronic illness where she has to pay an expensive co-payment for her medications as well.

Currently, my meds are free, I get paid for ALL of my holidays and I don't have the same stress as the RNs. Many times, I have said to myself that I could not see myself dealing with all of the senseless issues that they pile on the RN each and every day.

Choosing to remain an LPN does not make me into a degenerate, lazy or unambitious person. I do what I am more comfortable with, doing more would not be safe for myself or the patients because it would stress me out too much.

Also, over the years, I have seen the see-saw flip from one side to the other...sometimes, they promote the advantage of an all RN team, then, suddenly, with additional training and fewer RNs, they decide that they need LPNs. I don't take it personal...I just work. I can see if flipping again.

I am a strong proponent of teamwork within nursing. Bottom line is that we are ALL getting the short end of the stick, and we need to stick together to promote safe patient care and protect each other.