Ethical question...what would you do?

lovelee · Jul 28, 2004

hello brand new LPN, my name is lovelee and i was reading what you posted and i couldn't help but to instantly reply!

i am a student nurse graduating in the fall of 2004. the questioned you asked was, "would you say something"??????????

my answer is no!! i understand that the nurse is taking medication from the patient that does not belong to her, and im sure she is aware of it. perhaps she will replace it sometime in the near future or not. remember nursing is about team work. the best care you'll ever give or get will be from a staff that holds together. you're right when you said it is not a narcotic!! nor is the pt. going to suffer from a few caps missing, nor will it cause health problems or addictions to the nurse who took it. a season nurse may chuckle at your ethical concern because one day you'll reach out and grab a couple of tylenol's during a splitting headache episode and not think twice about it. i do understand your concern because as a student you're tought the right way to do it all, and not to base your practice on someone else's ways. so in closing, my advise to you is to remind yourself how important team work is, never base your practice on someone elses practice, use your spiritual judgement on whats minor and major!!!

good luck in school

Hi everyone!
I'm a nursing student and brand new LPN working for the VA hospital. I am training with an LPN right now and I'm a little concerned. I have watched two nights now when the LPN I was working with took an extra strength Tylenol out of a patient's medication drawer for herself. It wasn't a narcotic, but I'm still concerned. I work in the nursing home area where there isn't a Pixis; just a medication cart with drawers for each patient. The LPN is tight with the charge nurse. Would you say something? HELP!

BittyBabyGrower, MSN, RN · Jul 28, 2004

Sorry Love, but it is still wrong, no matter how you look at it. Go to CVS and buy a $5 bottle of Tylenol and keep it in your bag.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Jul 28, 2004

Right now keep quiet, keep a record, and be sure not to take anything out of the patients drawer for personal use. I would see which way the wind blows before I would stir the pot. This may be a standard practice that even if it is not ethical it keeps a body on the job and off of the supervisors back for a tylenol.

I agree. Although it's really not kosher, this is common practice at a lot of places. It might come back to bite you if you bring this to the charge nurse. Sometimes, you have to pick your battles in nursing

wonderbee, BSN, RN · Jul 28, 2004

Very unethical behavior. Does your facility have an anonymous whistle blower line? We have one and I think in this case I would seriously think about using it. If she's taking ES Tylenol from pts. that you see, there's probably quite a bit more that you don't. You are too new and do not have the relationship to do this on a one-on-one. This can negatively impact you too. You are in danger of being accused of doing the stealing if this should come out by some other means. Not only is her behavior unethical and immoral, it puts you at risk (and your license) too, especially if narcs are involved. Always protect your license.

SmilingBluEyes · Jul 28, 2004

I think disallowing nurses to OCCASIONALLY use floor stock maalox or tylenol is stupid. it has been what gotten me thru a shift or two to medicate for these things. (who can stand to work with severe heartburn or a pounding headache and who is gonna replace me if I can't hang with it?) I think that is being ridiculous to fire someone over that and am glad I don't work in a facility like that one. A reprimand would have been sufficient, I would think. Sheesh. :angryfire

weetziebat · Jul 28, 2004

i agree with lovelee. it is wrong to take meds - even a vitamin, but i am actually shocked that a nurse could get fired for taking maalox. wow! i've seen a lot of nurses take tylenol - and it never progressed to anything stronger. i just think it is not something i'd want to make waves over. you do have to pick your battles and this just seems like a minor skirmish to me. just my opinion :stone

Nitengale326 · Jul 28, 2004

Taking meds from a patient's medication drawer whether it be Tylenol or Morphine is considered medication diversion and could cost you your license or jail time. Some facilities however overlook the nonnarcotic stuff especially if the patients are Medicare, medicaid or VA. They figure they are paying for it anyway. We had tons of nurses do it all the time and management didn't care. I had an administrator ask me for a percocet once. She didn't get it ...not sure if it was a test or not... but she left me alone after that. On my shift, we took up a monthly collection from the staff and went to Walmart and bought Tylenol, advil, alleve, tampons mallox and all the other goodies... including bandaids, and neosporin. We kept it locked up so that only 11/7 had access to it. We kept a running list of who paid and who didn't. You had to pay to use it or you were out of luck. We gave everybody one chance to have a headache, not pay and still get meds. After that, sorry buddy. Needless to say, we had 100% participation from our staff and no one could accuse us of diversion. TIP: record in a book at home for your eyes only (and that of an atty if you ever need one) these type of incidents. This book will keep you out of court and will carry alot of leverage when the big whigs realize you are keeping notes!!!

Being new... keep quiet, but ask a "stupid question" of your orientor. Like "if I have a headache, can I get some tylenol out of a patient drawer" ... see what she says...

good luck

nursemike, ASN, RN · Jul 28, 2004

Many years ago, when I worked at McDonald's, they had a 1st aid cabinet with Tylenol, band-aids, Pepto-Bismol, and even Midol for employees who needed them. I had the impression, not necessarily well-founded, that it was an OSHA requirement.

Getting a Tylenol or a band-aid, etc., from floor stock is widely accepted where I work, though I don't know it is officially approved. Getting meds of any kind from a pts. drawer would be severely disciplined, and I agree, it's flat-out wrong. But I also agree that you have to be pretty careful about making an issue, and CYA even if you don't say anything.

On the other hand, I wouldn't stay long at a place I couldn't feel comfortable about being ethical. I can almost imagine my NM saying she would speak to the offender about it without formally reprimanding her, but I can't conceive of her reprimanding the reporter.

Blackcat99 · Jul 28, 2004

I have seen nurses take from the patient's personal med drawer once in a while. I don't do it. I bring my own meds from home to use in case I need them. I think nurses already know that it is unethical to do this and they continue to do it anyway. If I was a new nurse I would not say anything because the nurses already know it is the wrong thing to do.

crankyasanoldma · Jul 28, 2004

It is wrong to take things that are not yours in any situation. It is more wrong when the people who are taken from are dependant on the taker in some way. Why anyone would want to invite doubt about their actions over something as small and cheap as a tylenol in beyond me. Our nursing instructors told us to never even take as much as an alcohol swab from our employers and I abide by this guideline.

Our pharmacy does however bring us tylenol specifically marked for staff use and I would use this supply if I didn't have my own and needed some.

BittyBabyGrower, MSN, RN · Jul 28, 2004

Oh yes...they will get you for taking meds and we have had people fired for taking old nursery blankets (you know the ones that are so gross you can't use anymore). Our security reserves the right to check you bag at anytime. Someone, on another floor, snitched on them and they were fired that night.

It is all about cost containment. Especially the meds...if the patient isn't paying for them, who do you think is? Ultimately it is YOU, right out of your paycheck to the government.

Would I snitch...no, but I would say something to you. Getting fired or having to go to the nursing boards would be a pretty sad day for taking a Tylenol!

Trauma Columnist · Jul 28, 2004

Gosh I'm the old board meanie I guess. Taking from someone else is just plain theft! I work in a large hospital and we have tylenol for staff use. However, anything else you are expected to bring in for yourself and keep locked in a locker. Just because I'm so suspicious, I wonder where the OP's LPN draws the line? Tylenol only? I have arthritis and need some Darvocet? I just got back from being off after having surgery and need some Vicodin? Where does it end?