Members are discussing the quality of education between Advanced Practice Nurses (APNs) and physicians, with some arguing that outcomes are similar regardless of education level. The conversation also touches on the need for high-quality research to support claims about education superiority and the potential impact of different educational backgrounds on patient care. Some members are questioning the validity of studies comparing APNs and physicians and the implications of educational differences on healthcare outcomes.
A conversation came up in my class today, about whether or not to use the title "doctor" after we graduate. We will have earned our doctorate, and my professor has their's as well, but mentioned that it is not well received by the MDs/DOs, and that it is each CRNA's choice to use it or not, but that personally it's not a battle they will fight.
My thoughts, naively I'm sure as I'm just beginning my schooling, is that I will have earned it, I will be proud of it, and I want to use it. It shows the level of education that I have acquired. I can see myself introducing myself as "I'm Dr. Dream, I am your nurse anesthetist that will be doing your anesthesia today.
Is this a pipe dream? Other fields that earn a PHD, or other things use the title Dr.
I know this wades a bit into the politics of the anesthesia world, and I'm sorry for that, but I'm truly curious how people that are in practice, identify themselves once they have earned that doctoral degree. Given that the requirement is going to doctorate, and eventually the majority will indeed have a doctoral degree, I think it's reasonable to use it. Thoughts?
To answer your question it will require you also providing the articles you are referencing that support your comments for comparison.
I'm sorry, but I didn't bother going past the first link. An abstract about patient referrals is supposed to be high-quality evidence that supports physician-led care has better outcomes than APRN-led care? It's not even measuring the same thing. You've extrapolated that study far beyond what it was intended to measure, and I suspect you've done the same for the other studies you posted links to as well.
You seem to be disparaging your own education quite a bit in this thread, and I think I'm starting to see why.
I am quite serious. Yes, admission is competitive for most Med schools and the USMLEs are tough. But that doesn't reflect the educational system. Often Med students don't attend class and study on their own.
I'm sure the surgeons you hunt and drink beer with do enjoy your validation.
I am quite serious. Yes, admission is competitive for most Med schools and the USMLEs are tough. But that doesn't reflect the educational system. Often Med students don't attend class and study on their own.
I'm sure the surgeons you hunt and drink beer with do enjoy your validation.
See...this is part of the idiocracy that is the nurse training = physician training as ordered to the anesthesia setting. There is this completely absurd blindness that anesthesiologists are the only doctors in the world. Tell you what...if you do independent anesthesia, which, I'm not convinced that you do...why don't you tell your bread and butter (the surgeons for whom you provide anesthesia services) just what you think of their medical training of which medical school and all it entails is a big part. In fact, tell all of your indy CRNA colleagues to do the same. See how that works out for you.
Do you need to be a physician to do anesthesia independently? That answer is demonstrably "no". Is medical training superior to what advanced care RN's get (all things being equal, outliers notwithstanding)? The answer to any intellectually honest observer is demonstrably "yes".
But be intellectually honest. Pick a surgeon tomorrow, man up, and tell him or her just what you think of their medical training. I don't think you will, though.
Hi, I am Dr. X a nurse anesthetist. How is that misleading. Do interns say I'm Dr X the intern who just started 6 days ago. Do residents state I'm a resident in my 1st year that is why I was sent to see you so the senior resident/attending doesn't have to be bothered. There is a lot of deception in healthcare but introducing yourself as Dr x followed by your title isn't one of them.
Right but that's not the impression that I was getting from this thread saying "Hi Im Dr.Jones a nurse anesthetist" is fine but it sounded to me like the questions was introducing yourself as "Dr.Jones" which I think is different and misleading unless you follow is up with "I'm an APRN......." And in response to your other comment residents are still medical doctors.
Right but that's not the impression that I was getting from this thread saying "Hi Im Dr.Jones a nurse anesthetist" is fine but it sounded to me like the questions was introducing yourself as "Dr.Jones" which I think is different and misleading unless you follow is up with "I'm an APRN......." And in response to your other comment residents are still medical doctors.
That is what certain people like perpetuate is that aprns run trying to fool everyone, but I have yet to personally see it and most of the CRNAs I world with have their doctorates.
I'm sorry, but I didn't bother going past the first link. An abstract about patient referrals is supposed to be high-quality evidence that supports physician-led care has better outcomes than APRN-led care? It's not even measuring the same thing. You've extrapolated that study far beyond what it was intended to measure, and I suspect you've done the same for the other studies you posted links to as well.
You seem to be disparaging your own education quite a bit in this thread, and I think I'm starting to see why.
Outcomes can be a broad, inexact measurement of quality. Since the many of the APRN nursing outcome studies I have seen have been luke warm please provide links to your "high-quality research" and I'm not being facetious either.
1. If you want to talk about NPs please go to the NP forum.
" It shows the level of education that I have acquired. I can see myself introducing myself as "I'm Dr. Dream, I am your nurse anesthetist that will be doing your anesthesia today. "
For the record, I did state in the initial post that I believe I would introduce myself as a nurse anesthetist even if I use the title doctor. Being a doctorally prepared nurse anesthetist is what I will be and that is what I should and will say. I have zero desire to be considered an MD or DO, but I do have a desire for my (future) level of expertise in anesthesia to be portrayed.
" It shows the level of education that I have acquired. I can see myself introducing myself as "I'm Dr. Dream, I am your nurse anesthetist that will be doing your anesthesia today. "
For the record, I did state in the initial post that I believe I would introduce myself as a nurse anesthetist even if I use the title doctor. Being a doctorally prepared nurse anesthetist is what I will be and that is what I should and will say. I have zero desire to be considered an MD or DO, but I do have a desire for my (future) level of expertise in anesthesia to be portrayed.
But do you think you will be any more or less an expert in anesthesia because you have a doctorate? The MSN grads are the same as DNP grads at the end of the day - new grads. You won't be an expert at anesthesia when you finish CRNA school. Expertise comes with years of working and continually wtwyint current on new EBP, which you can do with a doctorate or a masters.
Interesting opinion. Would you be able to link to some research that supports this? I ask this because the only well-validated research I've found consistently indicates that the quality of patient outcomes is independent of provider type. I think we all know that there are terrible providers out there, but there doesn't seem to be any correlation in what letters come after their name. Not trying to bash physicians at all or say that there is no need for them, because I know that they have a valuable role in healthcare. Also not trying to say that all APNs out there are stellar, because I'm pretty sure we all know that's not true either. But if research indicates that patient outcomes are the same whether it's from an APN or a physician, then why should it even matter who's education is more rigorous?
I did not know that all physician vs apn outcomes were=
I guess they have done studies on pretty much every specialty showing we do not need any type of specialist, surgeon, etc if your assertion that APN vs physician outcomes are equal.
Please send me these studies showing how they are equal in every field I am interested to see this, since from my knowledge and hours searching online most, if not all of them were just for basic diseases such as HTN, DM, HLD, and a few other common factors. I have yet to see one that shows equivalency in all cause mortality over several years, being controlled for patient comorbidities? Most physician / NP groups work together and physicians are often consulted on the complex cases. If physicians are being consulted then how can they use for as a comparison? Stating "physician consultation was limited in these studies" without proof does not cut it either.
Also most of these studies are funded by nursing organizations, I highly doubt they would publish a study if it did not go with their agenda. Once a study is completed there is no requirement to publish it so they can cherry pick what they publish.
For somebody to come in and state that APN= physician who has not doing either np or med school is equivalent to a premed telling people how to match neurosurgery lol
But I won't argue that outcomes are equal for the basic chronic disease management as I stated above since I think physician education is overkill for that. Hence why its cost effective for docs and nps to work in groups were NP see the easy stuff and docs see the complex patients. As it is at most places.... Yet somehow the nursing world has somehow came up with studies stating "NPs are better" when this is the most common way np and physicians work together. I guess they asked the nurse practitioners not to consult docs on patients involved in the study lmao.
I'm sorry, but I didn't bother going past the first link. An abstract about patient referrals is supposed to be high-quality evidence that supports physician-led care has better outcomes than APRN-led care? It's not even measuring the same thing. You've extrapolated that study far beyond what it was intended to measure, and I suspect you've done the same for the other studies you posted links to as well.
You seem to be disparaging your own education quite a bit in this thread, and I think I'm starting to see why.
Where is your evidence for all around equivalency? Cause at this point i just see an RN who has never prescribed meds or diagnosed anything touting nursing is better. Are you one of those nurses who saves patients from those mindless residents on a daily basis and has a list on his or her fridge of the times you "knew better than the doctor?"
Outcomes can be a broad, inexact measurement of quality. Since the many of the APRN nursing outcome studies I have seen have been luke warm please provide links to your "high-quality research" and I'm not being facetious either.
Disproven huh? Ok and yeah I'll stay in my NP lane if you do the same.
Your still hanging out on the CRNA forum. My lane is anesthesia. Nurses have been doing anesthesia from the beginning. You always sound like you should be on SDN versus allnurses.
Where is your evidence for all around equivalency? Cause at this point i just see an RN who has never prescribed meds or diagnosed anything touting nursing is better. Are you one of those nurses who saves patients from those mindless residents on a daily basis and has a list on his or her fridge of the times you "knew better than the doctor?"
There are a multitude of studies showing equilavancy between APRNs and physicians. Physicians have been trying for years to disprove that APRNs should only work under physicians and no study to date has shown that increases patient outcomes.
Shanimal
184 Posts
I'm sorry, but I didn't bother going past the first link. An abstract about patient referrals is supposed to be high-quality evidence that supports physician-led care has better outcomes than APRN-led care? It's not even measuring the same thing. You've extrapolated that study far beyond what it was intended to measure, and I suspect you've done the same for the other studies you posted links to as well.
You seem to be disparaging your own education quite a bit in this thread, and I think I'm starting to see why.