Members are discussing the quality of education between Advanced Practice Nurses (APNs) and physicians, with some arguing that outcomes are similar regardless of education level. The conversation also touches on the need for high-quality research to support claims about education superiority and the potential impact of different educational backgrounds on patient care. Some members are questioning the validity of studies comparing APNs and physicians and the implications of educational differences on healthcare outcomes.
A conversation came up in my class today, about whether or not to use the title "doctor" after we graduate. We will have earned our doctorate, and my professor has their's as well, but mentioned that it is not well received by the MDs/DOs, and that it is each CRNA's choice to use it or not, but that personally it's not a battle they will fight.
My thoughts, naively I'm sure as I'm just beginning my schooling, is that I will have earned it, I will be proud of it, and I want to use it. It shows the level of education that I have acquired. I can see myself introducing myself as "I'm Dr. Dream, I am your nurse anesthetist that will be doing your anesthesia today.
Is this a pipe dream? Other fields that earn a PHD, or other things use the title Dr.
I know this wades a bit into the politics of the anesthesia world, and I'm sorry for that, but I'm truly curious how people that are in practice, identify themselves once they have earned that doctoral degree. Given that the requirement is going to doctorate, and eventually the majority will indeed have a doctoral degree, I think it's reasonable to use it. Thoughts?
But the fact that you feel I want to be called Dr because I really wish I was a physician says more about you than me. If you didn't think a physician has more status and is better than a nurse, then you wouldn't make the assumption.
Without a doubt and yes exactly as well as knowing physicians received a far superior education as compared to NPs.
Without a doubt and yes exactly as well as knowing physicians received a far superior education as compared to NPs.
I would beg to differ that physician education is far superior. If you're a good multiple choice test taker that'll get you through Med School. Once someone becomes a resident there is little quality control. There are a lot of great physicians but it's not because the educational system is so great.
I would beg to differ that physician education is far superior. If you're a good multiple choice test taker that'll get you through Med School. Once someone becomes a resident there is little quality control. There are a lot of great physicians but it's not because the educational system is so great.
Not sure on the anesthesia side but when it comes to nP vs MD education the MD classroom and clinical is far far far superior. Being a good MCQ will get you through both MD and NP school. It is not a lie that there is no control once somebody gets to residency but is there really any control for NP at all lol?
Just to get to residency takes a lot of work, and it filters out most people who should not be docs prior to that point, but of course no process is perfect and some slip through the cracks.
also the AANP exam vs the USMLE is no comparison.
Of course education is what you get out of it but that wasn't the point here we are talking if we took the exact same person and put them through med school vs NP school and I guess threw them into family practice (will use this since most NP are fNP) the version of the person going through the med school will be a much better provider.
Feel free to throw rocks but its the truth, at least in the general family/ internal medicine side.;
Of course education is what you get out of it but that wasn't the point here we are talking if we took the exact same person and put them through med school vs NP school and I guess threw them into family practice (will use this since most NP are fNP) the version of the person going through the med school will be a much better provider.
Interesting opinion. Would you be able to link to some research that supports this? I ask this because the only well-validated research I've found consistently indicates that the quality of patient outcomes is independent of provider type. I think we all know that there are terrible providers out there, but there doesn't seem to be any correlation in what letters come after their name. Not trying to bash physicians at all or say that there is no need for them, because I know that they have a valuable role in healthcare. Also not trying to say that all APNs out there are stellar, because I'm pretty sure we all know that's not true either. But if research indicates that patient outcomes are the same whether it's from an APN or a physician, then why should it even matter who's education is more rigorous?
But if research indicates that patient outcomes are the same whether it's from an APN or a physician, then why should it even matter who's education is more rigorous?
I guess it depends on the quality of the research we are hanging this hat on.
I guess it depends on the quality of the research we are hanging this hat on.
And the level of evidence. And the population/s being studied. To name just two factors.
OK, but neither of you answered my question. Can you provide links to the high-quality research you're referring to that disputes anything I said? I'm seriously not trying to be facetious. I'd like to educate myself.
OK, but neither of you answered my question. Can you provide links to the high-quality research you're referring to that disputes anything I said? I'm seriously not trying to be facetious. I'd like to educate myself.
Probably won't find any, doesn't even sound ethical to design such a study.
The outcomes between APRNs and physicians are equivocal any posturing about how much better more education makes a better provider is just that posturing and opinion.
OK, but neither of you answered my question. Can you provide links to the high-quality research you're referring to that disputes anything I said? I'm seriously not trying to be facetious. I'd like to educate myself.
To answer your question it will require you also providing the articles you are referencing that support your comments for comparison. I'm sure for every positive NP article there is an opposing MD article but that isn't the point I'm trying to make. MDs receive a longer, more comprehensive education which I believe makes it a superior. education. I didn't make any reference to outcomes just the quality of their education as compared to the quality of the DNP.
It has been repeatedly shown that mid levels prescribe more antibiotics, order more diagnostics and frivolous referrals which indicates a lack of training and expertise or at the very least frivolous charges in an already strained health care system. Also worth considering is that many of the NP studies were done back before the significant increase in NPs being graduated from questionable schools with minimal if any nursing background. You are fortunate in your specialty that schools are still requiring experience. It will be interesting to see how the NP performance data presents in upcoming years.
To answer your question it will require you also providing the articles you are referencing that support your comments for comparison. I'm sure for every positive NP article there is an opposing MD article but that isn't the point I'm trying to make. MDs receive a longer, more comprehensive education which I believe makes it a superior. education. I didn't make any reference to outcomes just the quality of their education as compared to the quality of the DNP.
It has been repeatedly shown that mid levels prescribe more antibiotics, order more diagnostics and frivolous referrals which indicates a lack of training and expertise or at the very least frivolous charges in an already strained health care system. Also worth considering is that many of the NP studies were done back before the significant increase in NPs being graduated from questionable schools with minimal if any nursing background. You are fortunate in your specialty that schools are still requiring experience. It will be interesting to see how the NP performance data presents in upcoming years.
I would beg to differ that physician education is far superior. If you're a good multiple choice test taker that'll get you through Med School. Once someone becomes a resident there is little quality control. There are a lot of great physicians but it's not because the educational system is so great.
Dude, I'm all for excellent CRNA's demonstrating our independence competency (I've done it for years) but do you actually think, program to program medical school and what it takes to achieve admission and competitive USMLE's is in the same galaxy as nursing school and anesthesia school?
You cannot be serious. You don't have to have jacked up opinions to be an excellent independent CRNA. Give credit where credit is due, for pete's sake. And holding to that idea is not mutually exclusive of CRNA independence. In fact, it's quite validating to the surgeons with whom I hunt and drink beer.
Jules A, MSN
8,864 Posts
Without a doubt and yes exactly as well as knowing physicians received a far superior education as compared to NPs.