Earlier today there was a thread regarding Dr. Kevorkian's release from prison. Just as I was adding my thoughts, it got moved to the Current Events restricted area.
At that time, it seemed like there was 100% support for him. Honestly, I was surprised, especially since not everyone he killed was terminally ill. (I'm from Michigan, though, so maybe I know more about his history).
So I'm wondering, do nurses generally support the theory of physician assisted suicide?
As a Christian, I feel I do not have the right to play God. Who are we to decide when to end the gift of life that was given to us?? I understand the reasons behind it, but it is not our life, it's God, we belong to Him, and He has his reasons.
Deb
One more thought. It's only a thought, not a real question you need to respond to.
Getting back to the "no one has the right to play God" arguement. If that's the case how is jumping on a termninal patient's chest, bringing them back to life and force feeding them not playing God?
Thanks Tweety! I love your avatar by the way....karate kid/bird!! :) Makes me laugh when I see it, and I wish it were animated, I would probably watch it all day long! haha.
Thanks for the wishes for my mom. She hasn't smoked since Wednesday...taking the Chantix, the new med, but she said it doesn't stop her from wanting a cigarette, said it only makes it when she does smoke, it doesn't have the same effect, but the desire is still there. Too bad, I was hoping the desire would deminish too. My dad hated the chantix last time they took it, but I think the surgeon and hopefully my brother and I, scared her enough about the healing process in smokers vs. non smokers. We all hate to go home now because the smoke smell is sooo strong, in the walls, linens, rugs, everywhere. Your clothes after just a day smell tool my hubby is flying this week back near home, so he thinks he will have off about 4 days between flights, so he will drive over and stay with my mom and dad. She hopefully will go home on Thurs. Friday if all goes as planned.
I am so grateful my hubby will be there, he is a sweetheart
Bless you!! :)
Sorry, didn't see your last post....
Well, I see the difference in prolonging a life as....to do so if the quality of life, and measure of the life will have a good outcome. Sometimes how do we know? God preserves the sanctity of life, he is for life....but there are instances in the Bible when people and even the saints in Heaven have prayed for the death of someone, that He chose to do so. He took Enoch up to Heaven....without the benefit of experiencing death. He took up Elijah as well, by a chariot of fire coming from the sky, no death, and also He also brought people back from death. We don't know why some are healed, some die, and others live....we won't know until we are in Heaven, but I have to go by my conscience and what I believe is right using the Bible as my guide. When my grandmother and grandfather, both Christians, maternal Grandmother had a stroke, and was put in nursing home. She was in a coma. I prayed for her to be taken by God so she would not suffer. While I was praying, God awoke her from the coma, but the nurse at the time told me I imagined it...she squeezed my hand when I asked her to. They didn't believe me for 2 days when she fully awoke. Anyway, she had almost no function....and my parents had no choice but to put her in a LTC. When she realized she would never go home again, she refused to eat and died just 8 days after going to the nursing home. My mom blames herself for this....but how was she to know she would stroke out when they put in her pacemaker?? I can't convince her that it was not her fault! By her not eating, and refusing food, well, I can't speak for my grandmother, but I don't look at that as suicide as she was really ill, and prognosis for any type of recovery was nil. She was going to die soon regardless. My grandfather was DNR, and he was my dad's dad. He had CHF, and acidosis, I found him in the ER with his blood already pooling. They did not want to put him on the vent...and he agreed, because even though they are sooo sick and will die regardless, once you put someone on a vent, who is lucid, how do you then take that away?? The family would have guilt over the whole "I murdered my loved one". My dad and aunt/uncle and grandmother decided with my grandfather, to not extend his life with extraordinary measures if his prognosis was poor. He was lucid all the way until the last few hours. He was in a coma, and it was a teaching hospital. We were called back because his condition had changed, and we knew he was dead. We walked in and there were 3 doctors pounding his chest and pushing epi, etc...and I had to be the one back then, I was only like 27 or younger, to say, he is DNR. They freaked out. They did keep him alive by doing that, but for only another 3 hours. He was going to die regardless. Rigormortis had already set in while he was consious, which was hard to see....really freaky.
These cases to me, if someone doesn't want to prolong a painful death by a vent or whatever....I do not see that as suicide either because they would die no matter what we did....but their comfort was first, and if God decided to heal them, then that would be His call, not mine.
I just don't like someone being able to walk in and say, hey, I want control of my life, I was given 8 months to live, lets skip the 8 months and kill me now.....to me, that is an unknown outcome. I have seen miracles, and real things that cannot be explained by science, so I have to err on the side of life....and what I believe to be moral/ethical in the eyes of God.
Tazzi, I won't post it here, because of what you said yesterday, but if you remember what I wrote....the abortion thing...I hate reading those stories of freaked out college girls, who can't tell their parents they are pregnant, so they end up leaving babies in trash cans, etc....remember? I am trying to skirt around talking about it as not to get booted off, but if you remember, do you feel the way I did?? I thought that was a great argument...I had never thought of before until I saw the news the other day, and this poor girl going to jail for years, and she obviously was mentally unstable based on the outcome and projected fear that she thought would happen to her by her parents....to her it was the unforgiveable crime to have an abortion, but doing what she did do which sent her to jail....it to me is a double standard. I just would love to know what people thought or think of that. Its hard, really hard. You have all types of people with different beliefs, views and upbringings, cultures, education, etc...all play into what people feel, and because it is a deep feeling, this subject, well, both subjects....or any subject that deals with death makes people uneasy. The reason they are uneasy is because it forces them to either: A) admit the sin in their lives or B) admit there is either a God and they are wrong, or do not believe in God, and the rest are wrong, and that makes them face their own mortality. People do not like to be called illmoral or even admit that one day they too will die, and where will they spend eternity. Some believe in a Real Heaven and a Real Hell, others think Hell is on earth, others believe we become one with the universe and are but a mere vapor....and because man cannot prove scientifically God exists, they get really upset about it, because their minds won't allow them to believe in something they cannot feel/touch/or see. This is where faith comes in....you either believe by faith there is a God and a real heaven and a real hell, or not.
Anyway, I am not here to attack ANYONE's belief, but I only have to attack my own....I challenge myself everyday, and the only person I answer to besides myself is God. So, I believe that God's views are black and white, I can only go by the Bible, as that is all He left us with, and if He thought we needed more, I know He would have left us more....but all the answers we need for everything about living our lives is in there.
I just err on the side of life....but at the same time, God does not want us to suffer, He hates suffering and he hates pain, disease, but it all goes back to this, then I am done :)
In Genesis when Adam and Eve first sinned against God, they ate the fruit, the serpent (satan) said to them, surely you will not die, if you eat of this fruit. Well, no they did not die according to satan, they were not dead physically, but they did die spiritually and lost that right and communion with God, that personal relationship. The reason they lost it was because for their own good and protection, God gave them laws....not because He is mean, but to keep them happy, healthy and safe...which is why we have the 10 commandments, not to make us be boring, but to keep us safe. So, by allowing sin to come into their lives, the garden and the world, God is so holy, that He cannot be where there is sin, so He had to cast them out of the garden, the Holy ground. They defiled it. So, with that, the whole earth became defiled. So that is why "God allows suffering". He doesn't like it, He does not want His children sick, dying, broke, and in bondage. So, because we lost that personal relationship with God, He had a plan to give us back our life, eternal life, and to restore us to perfect health and bodies...thank God!! so He sent Jesus. that is why it says, For God so loved the Whole Earth, He sent His only begotten son, and it is appointed to man to die once....meaning, we die a physical death and that is all God had intended. If you die 2x, that means you died physically, then if you do not believe in God, He will then have to remove you from His presence, because of the sin, and He is holy, so then you are cast out of Heaven for eternity, and that is the 2nd death. So, when people ask me how can God allow babies to have cancer and die, and so forth, I can only answer that God is sovereign. Nothing takes Him by surprise and because of the death in the world, there will be disease, sickness and sadness and tears....but the good news is that He has a plan!! We don't have to accept our death sentence, we only have to believe. That doesn't mean church or religion. Once we believe, we are born again, so we will then be converted from death to life....once it is appointed to man to die and 2x for him to have life. God wants us happy, and when people ask me, "Why then is God so arrogant that He says only Jesus is the way to heaven" I say....why anyway at all? He did not have to give us His son as a sacrifice. Jesus could have stayed in Heaven and not to go through what He did, at all, but He went through a living hell to give us the opportunity to experience love forever and ever.
:)
Okay, its Sunday and since I missed church, that was my preaching for today...pretty good, eh? LOL Just kidding, I am not mocking, just kidding He has a sense of humor too by the way!! THANK GOD!!
Thanks everyone for this debate, it really has drawn me closer to God over the past couple of days reading these posts and allowed me to share intimate details of others, and I think its precious that we can share and respect one another and still love each other! By the way, I would do anything for anyone of you, I respect you all very much, and am glad we have the opportunity to share! other countries would not allow such debates or conversations! Thanks to the original poster, you didn't know I bet so many would be so impacted by this. I am glad we are passionate either way, as God did say, He would rather you be hot or cold about your faith than to be lukewarm!!
seen more than i care of this in nursing home even but mostly in the prison system - got out after having transplant and are now back in - i read the stories of this as they get dyalysis or await another transplant - guidleines should say at the very least - abuse the new one dont get another........
This is why everyone should have their advance directives and living wills done BEFORE they become ill, and make sure their loved ones know of their wishes.
I had a COPDer that was basically okay one day and critical the next. His vocal cords became paralyzed and needless to say his airway was compromised. He was a DNR, and his wife struggled with the only treatment available: intubation. She wanted the docs to make the decision..anybody but herself. I told her the decision was already made..that he'd made it when he chose to be a DNR. She was only respecting his wishes. We started a morphine gtt, made him comfortable, gave her support, and waited for the end. A peaceful end. And yes, I knew the morphine would hasten the end, but it was the humane thing to do.
My prayer is that MY wishes are respected at the end, and that somebody has the humanity to make it as peaceful as possible...even if doing so speeds up the process.
Personally, I don't consider that suicide, assisted or otherwise. I consider it NOT interferring with God's plan.
she wanted the docs to make the decision..anybody but herself. i told her the decision was already made..that he'd made it when he chose to be a dnr. she was only respecting his wishes. we started a morphine gtt, made him comfortable, gave her support, and waited for the end. a peaceful end. and yes, i knew the morphine would hasten the end, but it was the humane thing to do.
my prayer is that my wishes are respected at the end, and that somebody has the humanity to make it as peaceful as possible...even if doing so speeds up the process.
personally, i don't consider that suicide, assisted or otherwise. i consider it not interferring with god's plan.
me either, i don't consider that suicide or pas, it was making the patient comfortable....and if god chose to intervene and awaken him and heal him, then that was god's choice.....he doesn't want us to suffer as much as we don't want to suffer. we are allowed free will!! :) had the doctor come in and said, we need to terminate him now....in the next 2 minutes, and did measures that would make that happen...to me that would have been pas...what you did was comfort measures and it happened as it would happen....1 hr, 4 hrs or 3 days.....god's hands, not ours :)
i hope people can see the difference....what you did was exactly what i would have done, and what we did do for my grandfather :)
I just heard something on tv from a pastor, and he said "we get into trouble when we take matters into our own hands.....like when Adam and Eve chose to doubt God's word and followed their own path. Like also Abraham took matters into his own hands when he doubted about having a son, took matters into his own hands and has made consequences that have carried generations over, looking to the middle east today, and then Jacob who doubted God's word and took matters into his own hands about his birthright, and had to resort to stealing it. Throughout history sin comes when man chooses by free will to doubt God's Word, and started when Lucifer wanted to be like God, and to put himself above God, and God threw him out of heaven, which was his favorite angel, and he took 1/3 of the angels with him, who are now the demons."
Just thought I would share since it really did pertain to what I had stated earlier. I just thought he said it very well, so I wanted to copy it as I heard it. See how God allows us to hear a message when He wants to tell us something? It makes me notice He cares enough about this thread to respond Himself :)
Hebrews 4:15, 16 "For we have not aan high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." God hears the pleas of his people and responds, and does not sit up in heaven on a throne while His children are suffering, He suffers with us and grants us grace and mercy for the situations we face, He is with us :)"
I think that PAS and euthanasia are the same thing. How do you think they differ?
Tweety's answer is exactly what I believe. Euthanasia is what happened to Amethyst's father...someone else made the decision that his life was no longer worth living and ended it. PAS is decided on by the patient and the act is carried out by the patient. BIG difference.
I don't support it. I do acknowledge that the oregon law does not seem to be fostering abuse of the concept within oregon.
I think more education on what "heroic" measures do for and to people, and more people making out an advance directive and having such discussions with their family members, is needed. People need to talk it out. People need to realize that life and death are both complicated and serious things, and not easily disentangled or made simple. I'm always suspicious of really simple solutions... and the oregon law to me is sufficiently complicated and has enough requirements that it is probably a good model, if I supported PAS. But I don't.
The dying people I have medicated, for the most part, are in extremis and in many cases can't even speak to me. They have a lot less than 6 months left; in one case I got an admit from the ER who survived a couple of hours after his massive heart attack. I can not imagine being the person who hands a lucid patient the pills with which he/she will end their life. And I don't want to support a law that will have more people being that person.
There is a doc at my new job who needs more education on palliative care, but whom I respect because he was willing to state "I don't just euthanize my patients" when asked to order appropriate meds. He would lose something of himself, as would a lot of people, if he were allowed to hand over the lethal meds to his patients at their request, even if the guidelines such as those in Oregon were followed. If I were, hypothetically, the physician who did this job, it would be very difficult for me to not see myself as an accomplice. And yes, it's all about the patient's right to choose, but it's also about the caregiver. We can't care for others if we don't care for ourselves, and I'm unwilling to put any member of the healthcare team through the mental strain of assisting someone with suicide.
I do realize that I'm sort of hypocritical here. I advocate people's rights to choose all sorts of things. But death is more serious than other things, because it's permanent. People in general, are highly capable of making rash choices that lead to disasterous consequences. I support the average person's generic right to make their own decisions, but if their decision is specifically to die, while awake and lucid and several months prior to their "time", that's fine but do it yourself and don't get other people to help you with it.
I just heard something on tv from a pastor, and he said "we get into trouble when we take matters into our own hands.....like when Adam and Eve chose to doubt God's word and followed their own path. Like also Abraham took matters into his own hands when he doubted about having a son, took matters into his own hands and has made consequences that have carried generations over, looking to the middle east today, and then Jacob who doubted God's word and took matters into his own hands about his birthright, and had to resort to stealing it. Throughout history sin comes when man chooses by free will to doubt God's Word, and started when Lucifer wanted to be like God, and to put himself above God, and God threw him out of heaven, which was his favorite angel, and he took 1/3 of the angels with him, who are now the demons."
Just thought I would share since it really did pertain to what I had stated earlier. I just thought he said it very well, so I wanted to copy it as I heard it. See how God allows us to hear a message when He wants to tell us something? It makes me notice He cares enough about this thread to respond Himself :)
Hebrews 4:15, 16 "For we have not aan high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." God hears the pleas of his people and responds, and does not sit up in heaven on a throne while His children are suffering, He suffers with us and grants us grace and mercy for the situations we face, He is with us :)"
With all due respect, and I'm sure I'll be accused of Christian bashing, or just adding further evidence on how difficult it is to be a a Christian, but that is just too preachy and too much like a sermon for me. I know you're saying the God you believe in commands you to not take matters into your own hand, so you can't condone PAS, but it's a bit much and seems off topic, and we're lucky it hasn't started a flame war.
I am a Christian and I do not have a problem for those who are ultra-religious, however I am not comfortable with Bible passages being quoted here. Not everyone here is Christian, there are people of all faiths as well as atheists and agnostics.
He has a sense of humor too by the way!! THANK GOD!!
Tweety, BSN, RN
36,271 Posts
One more thought. It's only a thought, not a real question you need to respond to.
Getting back to the "no one has the right to play God" arguement. If that's the case how is jumping on a termninal patient's chest, bringing them back to life and force feeding them not playing God?