Earlier today there was a thread regarding Dr. Kevorkian's release from prison. Just as I was adding my thoughts, it got moved to the Current Events restricted area.
At that time, it seemed like there was 100% support for him. Honestly, I was surprised, especially since not everyone he killed was terminally ill. (I'm from Michigan, though, so maybe I know more about his history).
So I'm wondering, do nurses generally support the theory of physician assisted suicide?
I am a Christian and I do not have a problem for those who are ultra-religious, however I am not comfortable with Bible passages being quoted here. Not everyone here is Christian, there are people of all faiths as well as atheists and agnostics.
As a Christian, I would not be uncomfortable with someone of a different belief system quoting from whatever they believed in (Moslem, Wiccan, etc.). It would be the same as someone quoting a theoretical nursing model that I didn't believe in.
I think that Deb has been very even-handed in explaining how her Christian beliefs have helped form her opinions on PAS and other ethical topics.
Actually, I think that the legal term for what you have described is - murder.
You're right --- euthanasia of humans, in this country, is considered murder. But the question was, "What is the difference between PAS and euthanasia?" In answering that question, Tweety was right.
As a Christian, I would not be uncomfortable with someone of a different belief system quoting from whatever they believed in (Moslem, Wiccan, etc.). It would be the same as someone quoting a theoretical nursing model that I didn't believe in.
I think that Deb has been very even-handed in explaining how her Christian beliefs have helped form her opinions on PAS and other ethical topics.
Let's not talk about the poster any further and get back to the topic, but getting the last word in I'll say that She has indeed been very even-handed, as have most of us in this discussion, however, the very last post was a bit too much Bible thumping for me and didn't seem necessary, as previous posts stated her position very nicely. Again, let's not go there. I'll only get accused of Christian bashing, as I have in the past, and we're off topic.
I think this thread has gone rather well. With only a half or dozen or so deletes. :lol2:
Yes...but again, with strict guidelines and multiple MD consultations and input. One md should not have all the power in this.
I work ICU and see A LOT of families who do not follow the living will/dnr and let their loved one pass away the way they want. It the brings suffering to the pt. Sad.
I actually agree with partly what you said about one MD should not have all the say so. My dad actually told me something today that I never knew. When my grandmother had a massive stroke due to the neglect of her cardiologist (no pre op tests were run before her pacemaker was put in) in the end it did bring good that the surgeon said he would never the rest of his career take a doctor's word that the patient was good for surgery....he would order his own damn tests and would make sure the patient was ready for surgery, and admitted that "we as good killed this woman". No other doctor would respond to her room when she stroked out in front of us. She obviously threw the clot on the table and they sent her up to the room with nothing, and I noticed she was gagging and was unresponsive. ANYWAY....my dad said on the death certificate (she was moved to a LTC because my mom could not care for her, and she refused all nourishment, and my mom wanted her on IVs for comfort, but it didn't matter, she died 9 days later)....the cardiologist idiot who did not pre op tests or pre medicate her prior to surgery, listed the cause of death as "family instigated non nourishment against doctor's orders"....my dad said he hid it from my mom all these years as my mom always blamed herself, and what the doctor wrote was an utter lie, as she was the one who would not put any IVs in and my parents requested it....she lied on the death certificate. My dad said he had never hit a woman, but came close that day when he ran into the cardiologist in the hallway, and believe me, between my dad and other people who knew the story and its a small town....her practice suffered.
The surgeon who was a family friend even turned in the doctor.
In the case of PAS....no, I don't agree, but if a patient is a vegetable, and has no brain waves, comatose beyond hope....I do not advocate leaving someone hooked up to machines such as a vent or other machines....if the patient is alive and only has an IV....and is able to live that way, that is fine until the their life expires naturally....and I know that is sometimes debatable about what is natural, but I think the basic fluid for the administration of medications for comfort levels....which can hasten death, that is emminant anyway...to me that is not PAS, or suicide...which is different. I totally agree with medications to keep a patient in the end stages as comfortable as possible, because to me, that is being humane....give them the morphine to lessen the pain. They are going to die anyway.....and you are probably only talking hours or a couple of days, and who wants to be in that much pain indefinitely. I totally support comfort measures, and sometimes patients will die because of those measures, but nothing anyone does will bring them back anyway. As a Christian, I have no problem with that. I do not, however, support people calling up Dr. K. and asking for a cocktail because they may or may not die in the next year or so.....I don't agree with that. Its a very hard thing and is so personal and brings about so many emotions.
Again, this is a very helpful thread. When I am a nurse, I hope I always can do what I think is the right thing for my patient within the law, and that I never have a patient that would say I caused them pain or even prolonged a painful end....I think we all agree with that.
I hope I can be a healing and comfort hand to my patients, and I do wear my heart on my sleeve, so if anything, I hope to be a caring heart, and can be someone my patient can lean on, and cry with, and hold their hands when others won't. I very much respect a person's rights to live or die the way they want to, but I could never support PAS as I think its described. :)
God Bless everyone, and may I never have to question my motives or actions, and I just pray that God will direct my path :)
Let's not talk about the poster any further and get back to the topic, but getting the last word in I'll say that She has indeed been very even-handed, as have most of us in this discussion, however, the very last post was a bit too much Bible thumping for me and didn't seem necessary, as previous posts stated her position very nicely. Again, let's not go there. I'll only get accused of Christian bashing, as I have in the past, and we're off topic.
I think this thread has gone rather well. With only a half or dozen or so deletes. :lol2:
Tweety, I don't accuse you of anything :) I have really, really truthfully enjoyed reading all sides to this. I envision all of us sitting around a nice fire, and having a cup of coffee and having an honest, hard look at a very difficult topic. I really, really appreciate all sides, and I want all to read all sides. I really hope I haven't been offensive to anyone, and one of the great things about this is we can talk honestly, and openly....perhaps because we are able to not be divulged of ourselves, and this has really helped me to see and understand more if I am ever faced with something that I personally don't approve of....I still have to do my job, and I would have something to look back on, and can take or gleen from that so I can use it in the future. I hope that something I have said might be a catalyst for someone else in a position that perhaps isn't their own "way or belief" but maybe it will give them something to say to someone in that position.
One of the best nurses I have ever had (I unfortunately have been a patient more than I care to say) I was brought in an ambulance with what we thought was an intestinal blockage....can you say MAJOR PAIN?? I asked my nurse if she was a Christian, and she didn't say no, but what she said was, "I will help you pray if you like, but I don't pray often, and I think I can uphold your belief in God". I told her I only asked, because the pain level I was in, was causing me to pray out loud in tongues...my belief, and I didn't want to freak her out. She held my hand and prayed with me, and later she said she wasn't a Christian, but had really felt something and learned something from me. I told her (no pain meds were allowed until they diagnosed the kidney stone...I felt I was delivering a baby...however, no time between contractions if you get my drift) she was absolutely wonderful and she was the best nurse I ever had....she was more than tolerant, she cared deeply for me, and respected my belief. I love that woman to this day, and if I left her with a tiny seed of faith she can use later for someone else, then God did that, not me. We both respected each other's position and she said she had never been asked by a patient if they offended her and she said "you are what I want Christians to be like, and are not". That hit me like a ton of bricks. No wonder people have bad impressions of Christians that are abusive, arrogant and uncaring.
So, that is why I love reading all posts
Much love, and I hope to be like that nurse!! She is why I wanted to finish my RN :)
Tazzi....off topic, but I am wondering if you are someone that I saw on TV before?? Have you cared for a famous person?? I keep thinking because of your name, you are someone else??
I am trying not to say the name I think you are. If not, its a good chuckle!
Sorry, I am sorry for the mulitple posts, but I wanted to say thanks to all of you had prayed and asked about my mom.
She had her Femoral Arteriol bypass yesterday in her left leg, and did wonderful! She was in ICU for less than 24 hrs, and other than her back really hurting her from having to lay flat for 2 days, she is really doing well. She is going to go home on Friday, and my son who is 21 is flying home to take care of her He is getting his BSN.
I am still having major problems with my clogged Bile Duct, and have been in tons of pain for the past 2 days, and I am on Actigall, its not working ( gallbladder out in 94) so I am trying to avoid having a PTC done, because I would have to wear that like a drain for 4 weeks!!! Then they are talking about doing another ERCP, except I have to have it done laproscopically because of the gastric bypass, no E tubes. So, then if the ERCP doesn't work again due to the scar tissue, they are talking about just sewing my bile duct directly to my duodenum, however, the doc wants me to see a liver specialist at UCLA before we jump into surgery again.
So, I had to postpone nursing school to start with the next class in October. I hated doing it, but better to do that now, then to have to drop out and hang back until October, when someone else can have my spot....I would have felt bad if someone couldn't get in because they are full, and now that will allow someone else my spot. They are holding my spot for October, and hopefully I can get all my stuff taken care of.
Thanks for allowing me to share here, it was easier than emailing many separate emails :)
What I support is allowing someone to choose not to be kept alive by artificial means. Relief from pain and anxiety is a must! Im a believer in Hospice. If someone was alert and oriented pain is controlled, anxiety relieved would they still want to end their life ?
What I support is allowing someone to choose not to be kept alive by artificial means. Relief from pain and anxiety is a must! Im a believer in Hospice. If someone was alert and oriented pain is controlled, anxiety relieved would they still want to end their life ?
I also believe in Hospice, and it takes a special person to do that job. I would imagine you become attached to your families and patients, and knowing they will die, its got to be hard to bare week after week, and year after year. That part of nursing is a true calling, as is LTC nursing. I really enjoy geriatric patients, and I can see myself working at certain LTC facilities like the one my grandmother is in. Its called Baptist Village in Waycross GA, and when you go there, its like going to a posh hotel, and very clean, and no urine smell, and its very bright and the nurses are soooo nice and the CNAs are just absolutely wonderful!!
That is a good point you make....if someone's pain is controlled, and they are not anxious, I don't think they would want to end their life if they can go peacefully and still have all the time to spend with their families. I personally would rather live as long as I can so I can have those precious moments with my family. Sad to think about, makes me even cry to think of it. I hate seeing people suffer, its awful. I wish there was an easy way, but as long as we have death and dying and disease, dying will never be easy and pain free. I just wish there were more medications available to help with patient's pain control. I personally don't think there are enough good ones out there, control the pain without making the person a complete mess. Hard call.
Great post, makes you wonder, thanks for that....it brought yet another facet to the multi faceted post.
Hey,,, Dschueler.... what about the use of marijuana for pain control? I happened to be a car dealership waiting on an oil change and on the Television was the Mike and Juliet show... with a discussion on marijuana and it's medicinal uses... Hey if Im ever so bad... I'll smoke it !!! People who have aids and cancer swear by it. University of Mississippi supplies it. Montel Williams uses it for his MS. Something else to think about
:lol2:
jojotoo, RN
494 Posts
Actually, I think that the legal term for what you have described is - murder.