Discussion, please share your opinions on this.

KJStarling · Mar 17, 2011

I have always found it interesting that once a student is admitted to Medical School they literally have to fight to get out of the program, even if they are doing poorly... In Nursing School they are constantly "weeding" out "weak" students. It seems counter intuitive to me, and I think it sets nurses up to be very tough on newer nurses.

Anyone else think this is odd?

elkpark · Mar 17, 2011

Women by nature are catty and competative

Huh?????????? (Speak for yourself, sister ...)

elkpark · Mar 17, 2011

I have always found it interesting that once a student is admitted to Medical School they literally have to fight to get out of the program, even if they are doing poorly...

That's not necessarily true -- I personally was involved in a situation where a student got kicked out of med school for flirting (mildly, briefly) with two of my nursing students in the clinical setting (I was the clinical instructor). The students talked about this in post-conference that day, but dismissed it (they were v. attractive and accustomed to men hitting on them -- they didn't think it was any big deal), and I also thought it was no big deal -- we all just laughed about it -- but someone else, I don't know who, observed this and reported it to that student's attending physician, who approached me and asked to speak to the two students to verify the information. Granted, this particular incident was only the "final straw" for this student -- he had been counseled before about his interpersonal interaction and behavior in the clinical setting and there were still issues (according to the attending). But this incident was the final straw, and he got kicked out of med school (senior year!) for it. And the physician mentioned that, given the circumstances under which he left this program, there was virtually no chance that he'd be able to get into another med school -- his medical career was over (my two students felt horrible, but I reassured them that it wasn't their fault at all; it was his choice and responsibility).

Katie5 · Mar 17, 2011

I have always found it interesting that once a student is admitted to Medical School they literally have to fight to get out of the program, even if they are doing poorly... In Nursing School they are constantly "weeding" out "weak" students. It seems counter intuitive to me, and I think it sets nurses up to be very tough on newer nurses.
Anyone else think this is odd?

LNever having been a medical student, please explain this. My understanding was that they would want to kick the students out more than nursing school

KatieMI, BSN, MSN, RN · Mar 17, 2011

Mr. Dellasega has NO IDEA whatsoever what medical school and, in particular, residency, really is.

Remember that example of ego-protective "sublimation" from textbook, where a guy who is just more aggressive by nature becomes a surgeon and thus gets opportunity to use his aggressive tendencies in a socially appropriate and acceptable way?

Now imagine a dozen of such guys, all hating each other, and each of them having a dozen of little guys to use as he pleases, literally, with power short only from direct and public physical assault (harrassment and tortures being permitted and encouraged). These little guys are denied any form of legal protection, any right to complain, any hope to get out of there before end of their terms and any chance to change anything and their lives and lives of their loved ones are depending on good or evil opinion of those all-powerful big guys.

And that's not a horror movie but a description of an average residency program. The bullying and hazing there can be at the level of a fine art, and the level is times and times higher.

And, after all, no nursing students, nor nurses are LEGALLY connected with the place where they feel bad, bullied, harrassed, etc. One always can get out, maybe with some losses, but it is always possible and doesn't mean instant termination of the career. Residents in many places and positions do not enjoy the same privilege.

d'cm · Mar 17, 2011

The theory does not ring true. Being male, I have my own theory: It seems to me the female gender has a tendency to "personalize" the actions of others that effect them, whether there was any intention to effect that person or not. The response that "you make me feel..."(whatever the person is feeling) seems more readily made by females. [The underlying idea being that what we feel is our behavior and under our control]. This response is accusational and therefore engenders conflict. This tendency for "it's about me-ism" goes all the way up the chain of command and becomes an art form of organizational dysfunction, e.g. anyone who threatens the status quo makes those in charge "look bad" and are terminated or forced to conform.

KJStarling · Mar 17, 2011

I have a couple of friends who made the choice to go Medical School, and from what they've told me once you get in, you have to beg to be let out... My one girlfriend (she's a surgeon now) told me of a classmate that hated it and wanted to flunk out and despite purposefully bad grades, he had to petttion the school to be released.

Very different from the nursing programs I have heard of where failing is a "c-" and no one bats an eye when the eject students... including my own alma matta...

PLEASE don't misunderstand, I KNOW MEDICAL SCHOOL IS A LOT HARDER THAN/DIFFERENT THAN NURSING SCHOOL. I AM NOT JUDGING ANYONE. I AM JUST TELLING YOU WHAT I HAVE NOTICED. PLEASE DON'T FREAK OUT!

It seems to me that once a Doctor proves themself, it's over and Nurses continue to scrutinize each other...

Maybe d'cm is right maybe it is more of a gender issue...

AND kudos to the Medical School that kicked out the student who was behaving badly!

Just my 2 cent's...

Heidi the nurse, BSN, RN · Mar 17, 2011

She is both a counselor and nurse practitioner. Here is a link to her web site.

http://www.cheryldellasega.com/home.php

I believe I have heard of her first book, but I think her theory is off the mark. Oh, and she is also a professor at some College of Medicine, so would have some insight into that world too.

linearthinker, DNP, RN · Mar 17, 2011

No, that theory doesn't jive w/ my exp. I think it's the throey of the oppressed class myself.

kakamegamama · Mar 17, 2011

I'm wondering what nursing school the author of the study is talking about......when I taught, our students were encouraged to think critically, to view physicians as colleagues with the joint purpose of taking care of patients to the best of their abilities, and to be patient advocates. Hmmm....

BrookeeLou_RN · Mar 18, 2011

I was taught the opposite in ADN program.. but I do believe nursing is perceived as that way by others especially older Doctors.

KatieMI, BSN, MSN, RN · Mar 18, 2011

Just my another:twocents:

The only one reason why bullying persists in nursing (just as in amny other professions) is because of it is allowed to be this way. Just like some drivers go crazy because they feel, or think, that cops never watch this or that part of the highway, some other people think that they may treat others the way they feel like and go away with it. And there are places where they can do it, for this reason or another. So, the remedy should be just like the one we civilized human beings used so many times before - stop tolerating it. Just like 100 years ago it was OK to lash a child for misbehaving, or 60 years ago it was OK to treat people badly because their skins were of different color - those evils were (OK, mostly, but I hope to see them ended with and buried deep:redbeathe) conquered because those things stopped being "socially acceptable" by wast majority of those involved or just hanging around.