Dilaudid for self-driving patient.

Nurses Safety

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Few days ago, one of the nurses held Dilaudid from patient until she (the nurse) sees the person who will drive this patient home because patient drove herself to our ER. Patient did not have any problems with it and was willing to wait, however, our manager told her to give Dilaudid now and that she is not suppose to hold the pain medicine or any treatment just to see the responsible driver physically.

That separated our nurses in two groups here:

Group 1: "I will not give this patient Dilaudid until I see the driver because I do not want to put my license at risk when this person elopes after Dilaudid and runs over a bus full of nunns. I do not want to go to court and have it on me for the rest of my life that I contributed to killing of innocent people. My preceptor told me when I was a young nurse to always wait until I can see reponsible driver in person because many patients will lie to you that someone is coming but what truly ends up happening is that they get discharged and drive off in their own car!"

Group 2: "You cannot hold Dilaudid from patient who told you that someone is coming to get them. You have to exercise a certain element of trust to what patient tells you. It is the same with drinking and driving, police officer exercises a certain element of trust that when you go to the bar, you won't get illegally drunk and can drive yourself home. If patient told you ride is coming, you can give it to them. All you can do to be a prudent nurse is to WARN this patient that she/he cannot drive home, that medicine inhibits your reaction, and DOCUMENT that you told them. Also document that patient verbalized understanding and has made arrangements for someone to come and get him/her. That is it. It is wrong to hold the medicine just because you don't trust this person and want to see the driver physically. And then how far do you go? The person may come to the room but they can still drive in separate cars (pissed at you and complaining to your manager the next day because they told you ride is coming but you have trust issues). To insure that they don't run over the bus full of nunns you either have to give it to them at their house and stay with them for 4 hrs or at the ER and then make them lay in bed for four hrs. Seeing someone in the room who says they gonna drive them does not mean your patient will not get in her car on the parking lot. And are you going to the parking lot too to make sure they get in one car?!!"

Is there any policy that can back one or another point of view state wide? I work for HCA and there is no specific policy for that.

This reminds me of a bartender being held responsible for refusing to serve an obviously impaired customer.

At my ER patients do not receive pain medication until a DD arrives and checks in with the nurse. The only exception is when it is obvious that a patient will be staying for longer than six hours after. I've seen them take the keys of a patient who wanted to take a taxi home. Good thing we did the patient returned two hours later demanding her keys.

I would wait until I set eyes on their ride, whether or not this was facility policy. Even if the facility policy would say they could leave, if anything happened you have to defend your actions in court and to the BON in a hearing. Giving the med without seeing the ride in person is negligent, it's not good practice and it's not defensible. In the case of the supervisor saying to give it I would tell them to go ahead and give it themselves. If I had the med in my hand I would either waste or return it and let the supervisor take a new one out, I would not have any part in it. I would also write up a full incident report and keep a copy for myself at home. Just because a supervisor says to do something that does not trump your sound nursing judgement.

Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.

I am obligated to educate the patient about the requirements of having a designated driver if they are going to receive certain medications.

I educate.

I medicate.

I document.

I discharge when the provider determines that discharge is appropriate.

If no driver is available the patient may travel by bus or taxi presuming they are able to get to the bus stop (right outside the hospital grounds) or have the finances.

It seems to me that the need for the pain medication is a separate topic from discharge and I would not intend to cause a painful patient to suffer in the ED because they do not currently have someone in the unit to drive them. They are there needing care and treatment.

Specializes in Medical-Surgical Nursing.
Few days ago, one of the nurses held Dilaudid from patient until she (the nurse) sees the person who will drive this patient home because patient drove herself to our ER. Patient did not have any problems with it and was willing to wait, however, our manager told her to give Dilaudid now and that she is not suppose to hold the pain medicine or any treatment just to see the responsible driver physically.

That separated our nurses in two groups here:

Group 1: "I will not give this patient Dilaudid until I see the driver because I do not want to put my license at risk when this person elopes after Dilaudid and runs over a bus full of nunns. I do not want to go to court and have it on me for the rest of my life that I contributed to killing of innocent people. My preceptor told me when I was a young nurse to always wait until I can see reponsible driver in person because many patients will lie to you that someone is coming but what truly ends up happening is that they get discharged and drive off in their own car!"

Group 2: "You cannot hold Dilaudid from patient who told you that someone is coming to get them. You have to exercise a certain element of trust to what patient tells you. It is the same with drinking and driving, police officer exercises a certain element of trust that when you go to the bar, you won't get illegally drunk and can drive yourself home. If patient told you ride is coming, you can give it to them. All you can do to be a prudent nurse is to WARN this patient that she/he cannot drive home, that medicine inhibits your reaction, and DOCUMENT that you told them. Also document that patient verbalized understanding and has made arrangements for someone to come and get him/her. That is it. It is wrong to hold the medicine just because you don't trust this person and want to see the driver physically. And then how far do you go? The person may come to the room but they can still drive in separate cars (pissed at you and complaining to your manager the next day because they told you ride is coming but you have trust issues). To insure that they don't run over the bus full of nunns you either have to give it to them at their house and stay with them for 4 hrs or at the ER and then make them lay in bed for four hrs. Seeing someone in the room who says they gonna drive them does not mean your patient will not get in her car on the parking lot. And are you going to the parking lot too to make sure they get in one car?!!"

Is there any policy that can back one or another point of view state wide? I work for HCA and there is no specific policy for that.

HCA is full speed when it comes to pleasing patients. I had a co-worker before who got flagged by pharmacy because she pulled out 18 vials of Dilaudid on her shift. She gave it all to one patient as ordered. That's how big HCA is on kissing-butts. So to answer your question, your personal discretion isn't really considered if you work for HCA.

Specializes in OR/PACU/med surg/LTC.

I've been in emerg with a horrible migraine and they were going to give me dilaudid but wanted to make sure I had a ride first. By the time I had arranged a ride, the doctor had left the building (small rural hospital) and I had to wait for the doctor to come back (I think he had gone home to feed the dog or something). I was so frustrated and in pain and I had to wait for him to come back. I understand the reasoning, but when you are the one in pain, it's hard to think rationally.

"I will not give this patient Dilaudid until I see the driver because I do not want to put my license at risk when this person elopes after Dilaudid and runs over a bus full of nunns. I do not want to go to court and have it on me for the rest of my life that I contributed to killing of innocent people"

Will somebody please show me several instances of nurses losing their licenses over this, or a similar issue? Are there any?[

How does the presence of somebody claiming to drive alleviate any responsibility for the nurse?

]I has a guy nearly deglove his hand with bacon grease- what if he simply had no ride? How long should I let him scream?

Specializes in Pediatric.
"I will not give this patient Dilaudid until I see the driver because I do not want to put my license at risk when this person elopes after Dilaudid and runs over a bus full of nunns. I do not want to go to court and have it on me for the rest of my life that I contributed to killing of innocent people"

Will somebody please show me several instances of nurses losing their licenses over this, or a similar issue? Are there any?[

How does the presence of somebody claiming to drive alleviate any responsibility for the nurse?

]I has a guy nearly deglove his hand with bacon grease- what if he simply had no ride? How long should I let him scream?

Good point, but I assume he wouldn't be able to drive home anytime soon, either. ;)

I've been in emerg with a horrible migraine and they were going to give me dilaudid but wanted to make sure I had a ride first. By the time I had arranged a ride, the doctor had left the building (small rural hospital) and I had to wait for the doctor to come back (I think he had gone home to feed the dog or something). I was so frustrated and in pain and I had to wait for him to come back. I understand the reasoning, but when you are the one in pain, it's hard to think rationally.

That makes no sense, he had to have had a cell phone!

Specializes in Geriatrics, Dialysis.

Good question. I honestly have never thought about this. I guess I am in the camp of documenting thoroughly that the patient was educated on the inability to drive, that the patient not only understands this but that they do indeed have a ride and then administer the med.

I was a single mother when I went to have my tubes tied before my soon-to-be-ex husband's insurance no longer covered me. Needless to say, he wasn't driving me to and from the day surgery unit-- I didn't even tell him I was going. (This made for a very interesting conversation he had with my soon-to-be new husband about four years later-- he asked if we planned to have more children...hehehehe .... boy-o-boy was he pissed off to learn something about me he didn't know but my true love did ... control freak to the bitter end, but I digress...). I had zero sedation by my own request and a spinal, so when it wore off and I was ready to go, I was ready to go. They wouldn't let me leave to drive myself, and didn't really care that I had had zero mind-altering medication.

So I called a friend of mine who worked in one of the offices there. She came down to get me, and she drove my car around the corner, parked it, and walked back to her job. I drove to daycare and picked up my kids. :)

Specializes in ICU.

My experience as a patient has always been that the physician discusses with the patient about rides before he or she will even write the order. And I will just give a couple of personal examples.

First one that comes to mind is about ten years ago I drove myself from work to the ER for a kidney stone. It had decided to become painful at work. My job was an hour away from the town where I lived. I knew I'd have to have someone drive me home so I drove the hour screaming in pain to my local ER. Once I got there, the physician talked to me about if someone was coming to get me. I told him I had called my husband on the way and he would be there shortly. I was given an IV and morphine and phenergran were given IV push about 5 minutes later. My husband was not there when it was given. It made me very loopy and about an hour later, my husband showed up and took me home. They were not going to let me leave on my own obviously, but I was in immediate horrible pain that had to be treated. I could not lay there is agonizing pain for an hour.

Another incident, I went to the ER for an injury. I'm thinking it was either my shoulder or foot. One I tore my rotator cuff and the other was a break. Since I have taking differing narcotics over the years for a vast variety of conditions, we talked about my ability to drive myself home. I told him that hydrocodone did not make me sleepy. Which it doesn't. It never has in all actuality. He looked at my records and determined I would be safe to drive myself that day. He informed the nurse of this and she administered the two Vicodins and I was observed for about 30 minutes. During this time my discharge paperwork was ready and I was on my way after the nurse and physician decided I was fine. I do have a little tolerance. They will help my pain, but they do not make me woozy at all, and haven't for many years. Again, it was something the physician decided.

A third time I was there for abdominal pain. Again, drove myself. I just knew something was wrong, but did not know what. It was Friday the 13th, ER packed. I mean packed. This doctor could not figure out what was going on, but knew I was in horrible pain. My husband was on a job and had a furnace torn apart in some guy's yard and it was going to be awhile, but if I was still there he would be there at some point. It ended up being my appendix. I did not have anyone there but and IV was started and I think this time it was Dilaudid. That stuff will knock me out. But I had nobody there with me when the IV was started. It took them 12 hours to decide it was my appendix. My husband at the time stopped up briefly to see what was going on. I couldn't tell you to this day if anyone saw him. I do know that at 8:30 at night I was wheeled into emergency surgery because it had ruptured. He was there by that point because I was in no shape to sign any papers for surgery. Lol.

From all of my experiences, it was up left up to the physician. I understand what the nurses are doing, but isn't the ride part covered with the physicians? If a person is that bad off, should the Dilaudid be held really? I'm also asking can't you just administer the medication and then not let them leave until a ride shows up even if it's a taxi. You could argue the point that they are a danger to themselves and others by letting them go. I don't think they should be allowed to hold that medication until they physically see someone there with them. I know my ex hated waited in the ER with me. He often would pick me up at the end. I would call and he would come and get me. I'm trying to understand the rationale of having to physically see someone there with the patient and why this is not up to the physician.

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