Difficult access: Would you go for EJ or pedal?

Specialties Emergency

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This post is part vent and part truly asking for any info on evidence-based practice. It is going to be lengthy, and I apologize for that.

Background: I'm a fairly new RN, but have been an LPN since 2006 and also worked EMS for 3 years. I'm new to the ED, but not new to emergency situations.

So, last night I have a little old lady that comes in for severe dehydration. She's AOx4, but extremely weak, hoorifice voice, and just looks bad overall and very dry. Sinus tachy on the monitor (110ish, not too bad), elevated BP. The MD sees the pt before I do (he's pretty fast on his initial assessment), and orders everything under the sun except for fluids.

Still, I'm pretty sure he's going to order fluids at some point, so I'm going to want a pretty good access, even if we're not bolusing it in because of her small size. Check her AC's first - nothing. Check hands, she's got some tiny baby spider veins that probably wouldn't even get a 24 in - no good. See a decent-looking vein near the shoulder, but it blows on me. A similar vein in the other arm blows.

MD is not opposed to an EJ and is very good and very fast. Her EJ's don't look awesome, but they are there and will easily accept an 18. I ask the MD if he will do an EJ. He tells me to find a vein and set him up for it (not a verbal order, just a "look and see what we got" kind of deal).

I put the pt in position to look for the EJ. Charge nurse walks in and asks me what I'm doing. I give her a brief report on the situation and I tell her that I'm looking for an EJ and MD will stick. Charge nurse asks me what her feet look like. I tell her that I haven't looked. Charge nurse takes the pt out of position for the EJ and starts looking at her feet. She has some veins that will probably take a 22 there, but they don't look great. I tell her, "I'm not really comfortable doing that". She says, "We'll have to get an MD order for it" (meaning, she thought I wasn't comfortable doing it without the order). I said, "No, I mean I'm not really comfortable with those veins. They look like they'll probably blow, and circulation isn't going to be that great in the feet anyway. MD says he doesn't mind doing an EJ".

She pretty much dismisses my concerns, tells me that she wants to avoid an EJ if possible, and gets the order for the foot stick, and she gets a 22 in the left foot. It actually holds, she draws labs from it, and it flushes well without blowing.

Fine. As long as we have access and got the labs, I'm cool with it.

Lab calls. Labs hemolyzed. I attempt to redraw labs from the foot. No go. No return. It still flushes well, but no return. Look for additional access to redraw the labs. Obviously, she has nothing. She had nothing before, she isn't getting fluids, and she has nothing now.

Charge nurse calls RT to do an arterial stick. Pause for a moment. Okay, you're uncomfortable with EJ access, but you don't mind doing an arterial stick on a dehydrated little old lady just to redraw labs. Okay, then. Continue.

RT gets arterial access at a painful expense to the pt. Labs sent. Some of the labs hemolyzed (the ones at the end of our stick, because the artery was clotting off).

At this point, pt has been in the ED for nearly an hour and a half with only half the labs processed and a 22g in the foot for access. If this patient needs a lot of fluids or needs blood, this foot access is NOT going to cut it. Sidenote: MD ordered a T&C, so he's feeling that she may need blood. Not sure yet.

I tell the charge nurse, "We don't really have time to play around with this. Let's get an EJ. MD already said he'd do it". Charge nurse tells me no. Repeats that she wants to avoid EJ access. She's going to redraw from the foot IV.

I'm hands-off at this point. It's at the end of my shift, I have one other critical patient I'm working on admitting as well as two other non-urgent patients. Charge nurse seems to feel like she has a handle on the situation and she already has report, so I'm letting her have at it. I admit my other critical patient, come back downstairs and give change-of-shift report to another nurse who is taking over my patients.

When I get back, I'm past the end of my shift. Little old lady is getting a liter of fluid and a Levaquin piggyback running into her foot. Not sure what happened after that as I just went home.

*takes a deep breath*

So, let's review the case. MD could have and would have obtained EJ access for me within less than 30 minutes. Unlikely that labs will hemolyze on an 18g EJ as you have excellent access and not using a tourniquet. Instead, we get a 22g foot access in 90 minutes. Labs severely delayed due to lengthy access time and hemolyzation of blood. Pt needs arterial stick d/t hemolyzation. Art stick hemolyzes. If the patient needs blood, she will need to be stuck again anyway.

Is there any evidence that an EJ is more dangerous than foot access? I understand that there is a risk of hitting the IJ, but this is an experienced emergency MD doing the procedure. Even with that risk, is it not more acceptable to get EJ access when anticipating blood/fluids rather than foot access? What would you have done?

Specializes in Telemetry, ICU/CCU, Specials, CM/DM.

In my experience, I have never started a pedal IV. At my facility, nurses were never allowed to start EJ per policy. For the patient comfort, the ED Doc would start an EJ if able or a Central line. The EJ line was accepted on the floors like any other Peripheral IV. It does sound like your charge nurse just has a complex and wants to rule everything without regard to the patient.

Christy

Specializes in ER/Trauma.

EJ/Central line depending on pt. condition. We generally don't bother with pedal sticks. If pt. venous access is horrendous enough to begin with, pedal sites are going to be less useful - especially if I'm going to need more blood draws/multiple meds.

Somedays though I start thinking that all humans should be implanted with a port at birth...

cheers,

Specializes in CCT.

Neck stick FTW.

Pedal IVs are generally a poor choice in the patients that get them anyway, as there's a good chance one of the reasons the arms are shot is due to PVD.

Specializes in pediatrics, ED.

Okay, Pedal is GREAT for tiny humans but.... With the older population circulation is usually compromised ANYWAY, if they are SICK, why not drop a central line or EJ. I would have so backed the EJ and actually told charge that she was at increase for infection etc due to poor perfusion. Sometimes, you have to stand up for yourself. (not cause conflict but stand up and say Um no)

But than I have the rep as the "wild child" here anyway so I guess I just would look at her and go Um, here is why I think your wrong and state your case. Also put in that the doc wants and T&C and a small peripheral wouldn't cut it.

It seems to me like she jumped in and bogarted the patient and ran with it. Not cool, that undermines you and now the patient needs to be stuck multiple times. Not cool on way more levels.

Specializes in Infusion Nursing, Home Health Infusion.

Sometimes when you are in the middle of a situation it is difficult to evaluate the risk vs benefit of your available options. Here are some things to consider. IVs in the feet or lower extremities can be useful in adults as a "bridge" line until you can either make a diagnosis or obtain a better access. When using the lower extremities there are deep venous sinuses in the femoral area and in some situations you can get drug trapping and also there is an increased risk of thrombosis.

An EJ is considered a peripheral line BUT has an increased risk for AE (air embolus) especially during insertion. Also bc of the location of the EJ vein it is difficult to secure and maintain a dressing in this area. I can not tell you how many times I get a call for an EJ that is temperamental/positional and or pinched off at the catheter skin junction. Often the ED nurses never know about this as the EJ will last long enough for them to get to wherever they are to be transferred. Also i an EJ should never be used for a power injection of CT contrast per INS. The potential for severe damage in the neck area is too great. As is often the case a patient may need a CT scan. The majority of CT scans patients come from our ER.

Another thing to consider is that once a patient is hydrated a vein that you did not see or feel before appears. I have seen this with my US. One time I looked everywhere for a vein on a very dehydrated elderly lady...I could not see a thing..even with US...so I found a small vein in her hand..put in a 24 gauge....got permission to run some fluids in rapidly and shortly thereafter was able to get a vein upstream near the AC with the US. I was taken aback at the difference in her veins with the IV fluids.

So stabilize the patient with what you can get THEN what the IV nurse does or you as a nurse do if there is no IV nurse is to evaluate the pts current needs while anticipating what their long term needs may be. In the case you describe I was leaning toward the EJ...you can infuse at a much faster rate...with an 18 or 20 gauge you can more easily administer blood and blood products..and in your case you could have easily obtained your blood samples. If a the PICC nurse or MD can then establish that and you can DC the the EJ. PICC or another type of CVC is then needed. Sometimes there is no clear cut choice but I got the feeling from your post the other nurse was not comfortable with the EJ for some reason..not sure what that was.

Specializes in ED, Informatics, Clinical Analyst.

It sounds like the foot worked out okay but if hypothetically the doc had gone for the EJ and everything went well that might have been faster and better for blood draws (although we can never know what may or may not have happened had someone gone for the EJ stick). I think that the best thing for the patient would be to get her a PICC ASAP because neither of the available sites are ideal, she's getting admitted, and will be getting fluids, meds, and lab draws throughout her stay. Why torture her with frequent sticks?

I think the crux of the issue is that none of us appreciate someone backseat driving when we are caring for our patients. We know them, we've assessed them, and we're caring for them and it is incredibly frustrating and aggravating when an outside person whose knowledge of the patient consists of little more than that the patient needs an IV starts telling us how to do our job. :mad:

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Okay, Pedal is GREAT for tiny humans but.... With the older population circulation is usually compromised ANYWAY, if they are SICK, why not drop a central line or EJ. I would have so backed the EJ and actually told charge that she was at increase for infection etc due to poor perfusion. Sometimes, you have to stand up for yourself. (not cause conflict but stand up and say Um no)

But than I have the rep as the "wild child" here anyway so I guess I just would look at her and go Um, here is why I think your wrong and state your case. Also put in that the doc wants and T&C and a small peripheral wouldn't cut it.

It seems to me like she jumped in and bogarted the patient and ran with it. Not cool, that undermines you and now the patient needs to be stuck multiple times. Not cool on way more levels.

I agree.....sounds like a "I'm in control here" situation...:cool:

Specializes in CT ,ICU,CCU,Tele,ED,Hospice.
In my experience, I have never started a pedal IV. At my facility, nurses were never allowed to start EJ per policy. For the patient comfort, the ED Doc would start an EJ if able or a Central line. The EJ line was accepted on the floors like any other Peripheral IV. It does sound like your charge nurse just has a complex and wants to rule everything without regard to the patient.

Christy

this same in me ed .nurse try for peripheral 1st.we cannot place EJ.md can place ej or central line .if pt being admittted needs labs and infusions CL will be placed.hypotensive definetly CL.icu admit ,whatever reason,gets CL.

Specializes in Infectious Disease, Neuro, Research.

I've done pedal, and EJs "under MD supervision". As an EMT, if I had someone going gung-ho for a less than stellar option, my response was always, "Doc X is taking care of that..." and I would walk away to find the doc.

Garza-McBride has about the best text for lab collections, that I've seen. Get to be friends with some of the Medical Technologists in your lab. Pediatric quantities are Adult quantities, they just have to be run on a different processor, or at different settings(which the MTs gripe about). Point being, you can do a C21 on 1.2mL of whole blood and a CBC on 0.35mL, etc., etc.. If you get a stash of pedi tubes, save them for those hard sticks(you can do finger pokes), so that you can get some valid labs without risking your site, or having to redraw multiple times.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=garza-mcbride&x=10&y=15

Specializes in ED, Clinical Documentation.

i agree. EJ over pedal in that situation, no question. sounds like the charge nurse had a bad experience. Also, a good charge nurse also lets his/her nurses manage their patients, not interfere in the management of a patient unless it's a safety issue.

Specializes in Emergency, Case Management, Informatics.

Thanks, everyone. Sorry I was slow to respond, but I was just waiting to see if there was anyone who would have disagreed with my assessment.

Talked to a few other nurses on my unit, and they were surprised at the story. Seems that EJ is the general consensus, both here and in my ED. Not sure where she was coming from with insisting the foot.

Haven't had a chance to ask her what her reasoning was, as I rarely work with her. Oh well. Next time, I'll be more aggressive in advocating for the best care, even if it means disagreeing with my charge nurse.

Thanks! :D

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