Degree Vs Diploma!

sckirrilus · Jul 14, 2007

i think it should be the individuals choice personally i prefer the idea of doing the diploma to attain a job then tailoring a degree to what interested you most or the area you preferred to work in. when you start out you dont really know where you are going to end up working i thought i would be a surgical nurse and didnt really like medical when i was training mainly because most of my placement experience was surgical but when i qualified i went into medical and remained there and love it, i do agree as well that degree nursing courses would mean a lot of people who want to nurse wouldnt be able or would have the harder academic slog to get onto the course which would be very off putting and i also think that degree nurses dont make better nurses even with the theory they still dont have the nonce to do the job. if the government is trying to bring this initiative in that we are all to be degree nurses by 2010 does that also mean nurses already on the floor having to go and do the degree course, if thats the case how can an industry already short staffed afford to have nurses off the floor to go and do the degree and still fit in everything else they juggle.

english_nurse · Jul 14, 2007

to be honest if you have a degree or diploma it makes no difference at all when you end up working in sainsburys because there are no jobs...

Silverdragon102, BSN · Jul 14, 2007

to be honest if you have a degree or diploma it makes no difference at all when you end up working in sainsburys because there are no jobs...

Have to agree.

In my opinion it doesn't matter which route you go there are always going to be courses you want to go on including top up. Sometimes I feel it weeds out the ones that in the old days would have done the EN training who would make excellant nuses but not always academic to meet the grades.

I too have seen both good and bad nurses regardless of when they trained but find the ones training in the last few years have very little basic knowledge which they should know and find doing patient care beneath them and very quick to run away

karenG · Jul 16, 2007

ah the finest claire rayner rhetoric, hmm, luvvie, ... placing nursing firmly back into the past whenre kissing orifices and mopping doctor's brow were the order of the day...
ah.. never did that.. and never saw it either... maybe a bit before my time...
define truely stupid questions?
also isn't the stupid question the one that isn't asked ...?
stupid questions.. too many to list here... although being asked if it was possible to take a temp via the umbilicus was a good one.
primary is a significant proprition of Nursing practice, although not all HEIs have a fair and representative balance of different areas of clinicla practiceamong their teaching staff
to be honest, its really hard to find general practices that want to host student nurses because of the attitude of the students. I lecture on the practice nurse course and am a clinical practice teacher and the practice I work in wont host students.. we get fed up with the unprofessional manner in which they present themselves for work and the attitude they come with. I am sure there are some good students out there- we just dont seem to get them!
2300 hours is a substantial amount of time in clinical practice especially when there is theprotection from being used as an NA that supernumerary status brings
actually its not... and I've met 3rd year student nurses who have never given an injection..
Supernumerary status is to protect the learning environment not to prevent work ... the primary purposes of supernumerary status as was explained to us when we started was to allow students to be able to turn round and say "I want to do X to benefit my learning " not to get out of doing nursing work when there was nursing work to be done...
there was and in some places remains a tendancy for certain people to attempt to use junior students as pairs of hands to do NA tasks ...
As a senior student, across most of my final year i expected and it was expected of us by the HEI that unless we had got something planned that we would be taking a reasonable patient load supported by an experienced RN or sharing a full patient load with an RN...
I had a full patient load from day one on the wards... and I was supervised by staff nurses who I swear had eyes in the back of their heads. what is so wrong with doing NA tasks?? nursing is surely about caring for people and does that not incluede the 'menial stuff' like giving bed baths and doing pressure area care.. lack of staff is not an exuse for lack of basic nursing care.
actually.. the difference between my training and yours is so vast.. it is like a different world. I still think mine was the better training.. I may not know how to work all the gadgets they have on the wards these days but I do know that when i worked as a community matron, I got truly fed up with my patients being discharged with more wrong with them than they went in with!
I'm not stuck in the dark ages.. I think my role as a lecturer and clinical practice teacher would be impossible if I was! But it is time to look at the training and see what can be improved upon. where I work they are looking at students actually working on the wards.. getting their hands dirty and working shift patterns. I think the current transition from being a watcher to actually running the ward and being expected to do it competently is a very hard thing to do. The drop out time seems to have moved from our half way through training to about a year post graduation. something aint working somewhere..........

lisamct · Jul 16, 2007

I have a different perspective on this as I have personal experience of both ways of training, as well as mentoring students from the new uni based courses.

I trained as a learning disability nurse in 1991-1994, doing the old modular training in a school of nursing attached to the hospital (one of the last classes before P2000 took over) Now, Im 2 years into the 3 midwifery degree course, based in university.

As far as time spent in clinical areas is concerned I dont think there's a great deal of difference. First time round we spent 10 weeks in college prior to our first placement then 4-6 weeks before the others. This time round we spend 5-6 weeks in uni and then go out on placement. Time actually spent on placement seems to be pretty similar with 8-10 week blocks each time.

In both courses I was/have been expected to work my mentors shifts from the very first placement, work full time hours at all times and work all shift patterns. Im also expected to work whilst Im there, as I was in my first training, including basic nursing/midwifery tasks and where appropriate helping out the NA's when they're busy.

At this stage of my present course Im expected to look after my own women with support when needed from my mentor as well as running a clinic room on my won. As I remember it I wasnt given any more responsibility in my first training at this stage than I have now.

We have all people from all walks of life on our midwifery course. At present its an optional degree course, we choose at the end of 2nd year whether to do the diploma or degree, as far as I know we're all going down the degree route (midwifery will be degree only by 2008). Although the entry qualifications for the diploma are the same as they were for my first nursing course (5 gsce's/o levels) some of my cohort didnt have these so completed the access to nursing course therefore making teh degree route accessible to them.

I do think that there are some shortcomings in our course though. But, I think thats more to do with the change to direct entry midwifery than the degree course itself. As a group we arent taught things like bed bathing patients, setting up IV's, we're expected to learn these on placement but staff arent heppy to teach them as they feel its the uni's job.

I think Ive been lucky that Ive got previous experience and skills but the majority of our group arent so lucky. I think its sad that the short comings of both the universities and at times the clinical areas are leading to these peole qualifying and being seen as less able than previously trained nurses/midwives. In the end they have no option than to complete the course in this way so amybe a bit more support from all areas is whats needed, and by support I also mean constructive critisism if needed as well as honest assessment rather than qualified staff just passing students when they have genuine concerns about their practice.

Whew, enough of my rant, well done if youve got to the end of it!!

nightmare, RN · Jul 16, 2007

I,like Karen and several others ,am a traditionally trained RGN. I trained in the early 70's and we certainly did not mop the doctors brow! In fact we used to give the young doctors a hard time because we knew more about ward procedures than they did!

Working with me at the moment are two carers who have dropped out of nurse training because they just could not hack it academically . I have to say that they both would have made great EN's as they are both very good not only with the residents but also at basic nursing care.

We worked our way up through the basics to more skilled areas but it is the basics where you get you grounding in nursing observation etc.While you are bathing/feeding etc you are constantly assessing.It becomes routine,second nature.

I must say I enjoyed having students for a while,sadly we no longer take students because of staffing levels but I did learn from some of the students the latest theories in various things.

Whatever they decide to do degree/diploma we will continue to get nurses ,some good ,some not so good but that is exactly the same as ,all those years ago,we used to get. It's human nature.May all nurse continue to be human!!

suzanne4, RN · Jul 16, 2007

I'm a traditionally trained (oh i like that phrase!) nurse.. went into training with only 8 'o' levels.. and I'm doing a masters degree.. but to be honest the academic stuff isnt what makes a good nurse.. its having a huge dollop of common sense and the ablility to roll your sleeves up!
the students i meet today (and huge generalisations here so sorry) tend to be bright - maybe- but on whole seem interested in.. not sure what!! they ask truly stupid questions of us in primary care (maybe primary care is just not mentioned in training), they have appalling communications skills and no listening skills. my latest student patiently asked a man about his diet. he told he was a vegetarian.. and got a lecture on not eating too much meat and the need to eat vegetables!!
the training needs to go back to having a large element of clinical practice and (just to be contraversal) the students need to work! not to be suppernumary. communication skills are learnt by talking to patients. best ward sister i ever worked with would do a back round once a day to talk to her patients and check how they were. and dont get me started on the value of back rounds!
I think nursing is moving away from nursing in its attempt to become recognised as a profession. I see patients discharged with pressure sores and foot drop.. leg ulcers that havent been dressed because they were on the wrong ward.. what happened to basic nursing care
so make the training university based if you must but add in a huge practice based component- and make the students work!
drop-out rates were mentioned.... I started in a group of 32 and 30 of us finished. those that left, left at 18mths. it was known as the 18mth hump and if you got past that, you usually stayed and survived to go to terrorise more students! by the time i was a third year, I was running a ward.. and nearly 30yrs I am still here.. only now I am a nurse practitioner and clinical practice teacher working in general practice.
getting off soap box now and donning flame proof jacket!
Karen

I agree with every single word that you have posted. And it needs to be read by others as well, not just on the UK forum. We are seeing it all over. And I get red in the face from repeating myself over and over again.

I applaud you for stating what you did here.

english_nurse · Jul 17, 2007

i am a recently trained nurse i qualified 4 years ago and i feel like i am being made out to be super brainy but have no common sense, which isnt me at all!!!! i think to generalise isnt fair, there are lots of good, recently trained nurses, the old way isnt always the good way, i think we need to get the best bits from both styles of training really

i need to add that i have worked with nurses trained both ways and have encountered nurses who are rubbish and nurses who are good, equally from both types of training. Its not always about the training style its about personalities of the individual for example common sense cant be taught you either have it or you dont...

allnurses Guide · Jul 17, 2007

i am a recently trained nurse i qualified 4 years ago and i feel like i am being made out to be super brainy but have no common sense, which isnt me at all!!!! i think to generalise isnt fair, there are lots of good, recently trained nurses, the old way isnt always the good way, i think we need to get the best bits from both styles of training really
i need to add that i have worked with nurses trained both ways and have encountered nurses who are rubbish and nurses who are good, equally from both types of training. Its not always about the training style its about personalities of the individual for example common sense cant be taught you either have it or you dont...

E.N I have to agree with you, I am a traditionally trained nurse I have also been a lecturer practitioner (in a past life) and taught degree and diploma students.

I have come across the most awful degree students and nurses, and in exactly the same way have worked with traditionally trained nurses who I would be reluctant to allow care for my cat.

I have also had the pleasure to work with outstanding traditionally trained nurses who I have used as role models and been humbled by the care and attention a first year degree student has taken to repeately explain to a confused patient why she couldnt go home when all other staff were losing patience. I don't think the type of training would alter that it's the enthusiasm and eagerness these nurses have to learn and improve and the desire to care for thier patients.

WHen I trained (I'll just reach for my walking stick now) as a second year student I was left in charge of an acute surgical ward with 2 health care assistants, the qualified nurse was on the ward next door and came over to give the drugs when needed. Was that right , no, definately not in the best interests of the patients but I learned very quickly how to manage the ward and prioritise patient care which I think made me a better nurse when I did qualify, the potential for mistakes was huge. Does the training today provide that type of experience, again no but I am not sure that is a bad thing, when I qualified within 2 days I was the nurse in charge on shift, and the training I recieved prepared me to be able to deal with this responsibility. THis is unlikely to happen today (I accept that it may but not routinely which was my experience) and with that in mind the training would appear to meet the needs of the newly qualified better than traditional training.

As far as degree and diplomas, my own view is that nursing is a practical job it comes down to hands on patient care, do you need a degree to do that - possibly not but do you need evidence based practice - absolutely. One of the best ways I found to make sure that my practice was based on good quality evidence was through study which is why I went on to study a degree and am now writing up a masters dissertation. I am not sure I could have got the skills to critically read research without that study.

I do worry that many good practical nurses may be excluded or put off by graduate entry nursing but wonder if they are motivated enough to do nursing as a career then this will prove only to be a small stumbling block.

madwife2002, BSN, RN · Jul 17, 2007

XB9S Excellent comments I couldnt agree more especially

as far as degree and diplomas, my own view is that nursing is a practical job it comes down to hands on patient care, do you need a degree to do that - possibly not but do you need evidence based practice - absolutely.

I think evidence based practice has changed nursing so much and allowed nurses to be seen as a professional-I know where I worked b4 leaving the UK we enjoyed researching and applying EBP. It made us care about the nursing we were giving and we strived for perfection (impossible I know) but we prided ourselves that for each individual pt we were looking at and applying the best care we could because we had researched it. We are so lucky in the UK that we can evidence practice, here in the US it is more difficult as a floor nurse to actually apply evidence to our practice because the doctors have control, like I doubt the doctors ever had control in the UK.

When I came here I was so used to applying evidence based practice I was shocked that it was not part of the consideration of care-doctors make the orders nurses carry out the care-you cant even do bowel care unless there is an order!

To be truthful it is easier to work as a nurse here if you just wanna go do your work and go home and never pass another thought to whether the care you gave was correct and woe betide you if you question a Doctor. Just be a good girl/boy do what you're told and go home.

Sorry off topic.

allnurses Guide · Jul 17, 2007

XB9S Excellent comments I couldnt agree more especially
I think evidence based practice has changed nursing so much and allowed nurses to be seen as a professional-I know where I worked b4 leaving the UK we enjoyed researching and applying EBP. It made us care about the nursing we were giving and we strived for perfection (impossible I know) but we prided ourselves that for each individual pt we were looking at and applying the best care we could because we had researched it. We are so lucky in the UK that we can evidence practice, here in the US it is more difficult as a floor nurse to actually apply evidence to our practice because the doctors have control, like I doubt the doctors ever had control in the UK.
When I came here I was so used to applying evidence based practice I was shocked that it was not part of the consideration of care-doctors make the orders nurses carry out the care-you cant even do bowel care unless there is an order!
To be truthful it is easier to work as a nurse here if you just wanna go do your work and go home and never pass another thought to whether the care you gave was correct and woe betide you if you question a Doctor. Just be a good girl/boy do what you're told and go home.
Sorry off topic.

Oops have I stirred a hornets nest up here https://allnurses.com/forums/f8/nurses-we-just-trained-well-behavedmonkeys-236703.html

where's my popcorn :lol2: :smiley_ab

nightmare, RN · Jul 17, 2007

XB9S makes all good points:up: The one thing I would disagree with is the fact that try as they may some people just can't cope with uni! this means a whole pool of potentially good basic nurses being wasted. I note in the US they have LPN's am I right in thinking this is a two year course which is possibly similar to our old EN course? I have worked with many good EN's who were happy to work on the floor,had no desire to be management and just wanted to care for patients ,isn't that what we all want?

I agree entirely with the evidence based practice it puts patient care into perspective and makes sense of treatments/drugs etc. I spend a lot of time trying to check out different problems/diseases/drugs so that I can look after my residents the best way I can and can sometimes pass on what I've learned so that other nurses can see that

Resident A is not just "doing that" (a phrase I hate) but that there is a reason for it and ,possibly, a treatment. As previously stated in another post I did not have the opportunity to go to uni,so it is sometimes hard to do research without that foundation but it is amazing how much you can teach yourself!!