Could the police learn something from nurses?

[DesiDani]

On how to safely deal with a violent or even non violent person. Of course I do realize that in public there are weapons involved, however I do believe that they can learn something from nurses. Not to mention that nurses have to deal with potential weapons too.

[toomuchbaloney]

On 6/9/2020 at 8:32 PM, Tenebrae said:

Just a random aside

I had a student nurse tell me this week as a person of colour they shouldnt expect to get top marks. In 2020.

We had another situation where at my nephews school where a teacher went around pulling down #blacklivesmatter posters

There is no question that we are quite plagued with unconscious and intentional racism. Certainly tearing down posters in a school or verbally demeaning a student is a form of racial violence. But police do all of that too...in addition to beating and killing unarmed blacks at a higher rate than they beat and harm other citizens in their custody. Yep. Police talk crap, dehumanize, obstruct, agitate and escalate...all with an immunity that teachers do not enjoy.

[toomuchbaloney]

17 minutes ago, Tenebrae said:

I heard someone say that POTUS is not the beginning of the problem. And I agree with that because this problem is deep seated and entrenched and been there long before current POTUS and unless things change significantly long after

The man who shot up two mosques last year, killed 51 worshippers and wounded another 50 named Donald Trump as one of his heros.

POTUS is currently doing the equivalent of trying to put out a forrest fire by using gasoline instead of water

I certainly don't blame Trump for racism in America. Like you, I blame Trump for his contributions to the racist divides. He apparently isn't capable of anything better.

[toomuchbaloney]

On 6/7/2020 at 3:28 PM, Daisy4RN said:

This is bolognas comments I was responding to:

"It's definitely helpful to counter the lies that police regularly pass of as some official report of an incident. Sometimes the videos are misleading. Frequently, police lie intheir accounts"

lies that regularly pass...frequently police lie.

Although that may be true in Mr Floyds case that doesnt mean it is true (generally speaking) of all cops and statement like that do not help the situation IMO. Like someone else stated we as nurses dont all want to be judged by the bad ones and we shouldn't judge all cops by the bad ones either (or any other profession).

There is nothing mysterious about the abundance of evidence from across the country of police INTENTIONALLY and regularly lying about what occurred during violent encounters or policing incidents. I recently sat on a trial where police lies were evident. This basic dishonesty is not isolated.

[toomuchbaloney]

On 6/7/2020 at 11:58 AM, Daisy4RN said:

Not seeing your claims (that police frequently lie, or that those lies pass as fact etc.) as sound, clear or supported by countless examples

Police lied about Sandra Bland, Tamir Rice, George Flynn, Breonna Taylor...

Thousands of people are arrested and detained or jailed upon the word and work of police known to be liars.

https://www.Google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2233386001

https://www.Google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-police-perjury-new-york.amp.html

[hppygr8ful, ASN, RN, EMT-I]

Based on what I have seen I don't think so. with the exception of some very fine psych nurses most of my friends in acute care don't know the first thing about how to deescalate a patient or situation. They either run from it or they call security to handle it.

This may not be true of every nurse out there and I am sure there are some individuals with mad skills … I just haven't seen it for myself.

In our psych facility we started a program last year where nurses with good de-escalation skills could become part of the behavior or patient whisperer teams. We did this in an effort to cut down on take downs and seclusion and restraint episodes. It is slowly working.

Hppy

[hppygr8ful, ASN, RN, EMT-I]

On 6/5/2020 at 12:49 PM, amoLucia said:

One issue that is under-recognized is the role that the police UNIONS play when tragic situations arise. The unions seem to always (?) support the officer's actions. And the officers obtain the best-est legal support avail. (AT whose expense?)

From the time that an incident occurs, the officers seem 'protected' and accorded treatment not usually afforded perpetrators of similar occurrences.

I'm floored by the detail that the officer in GF's case had 18, yes, eighteen, write-ups over his career. How many of us could have 18 write-ups and still be practicing? Something's just not right there!

It is pathetically sad that the honorable police enforcement community as a whole suffers a black eye as a result of the behaviors of the rogue cops out there. It casts such a pale on the reputation of the profession. The general public jumps all over the rogue nurse, but employers and respective professional boards are usually there to intervene in many instances BEFORE the behaviors become so contrary to acceptable standards of practice.

Yes yes yes - the officer involved in the murder of George Floyd had 18 separate complaints filed against him for excessive use of force. Not a single one resulted in discipline. You can be sure his union rep was there to help the whole thing go away. This is my argument against labor unions in general. The small amount of protection they provide to the honest hard working employee does not make up for the harm done for every dishonest employee they protect. In Los Angeles county where I live there is a 5 story building in the city where teacher's accused of everything from insubordination, child molestation, larceny, assault and battery go every day and do nothing while receiving full pay while they wait for the Union to settle their case. Nurses Unions are no better as they continue to protect nurses who should be fired outright for incompetence, malpractice and malfeasance.

Unions provide protection for mediocre work performance at the cost of the honest, hard working employee as most of the dues paid go to Union Bosses, Corrupt politicians and defending employees that should rightly lose their jobs.

Hppy

[amoLucia]

23 minutes ago, hppygr8ful said:

Unions provide protection for mediocre work performance at the cost of the honest, hard working employee as most of the dues paid go to Union Bosses, Corrupt politicians and defending employees that should rightly lose their jobs.

Hppy

This is my gripe with unions. I was in an uncomfortable position where I was expected to assist In the performance-based evaluation termination decision of my assigned subordinate assistant. Problem was the guy was 'SATISFACTORY' accd'g to his job performance requirements.

He was 'satisfactory'; no more but NO LESS. He_did_his_job. He had no desire to achieve anything more; he just wanted to come in, do only what he was supposed to do, go home and get paid for what he did. Which he did like he was supposed. Like he couldn't be disciplined on a technicality.

He was previously written up (prior to me) but his union-defended outcome protected him for his 'satisfactory', albeit LACKLUSTER job performance. NO RULE AGAINST THAT! TPTB just no longer wanted him as just a barely MEDIOCRE employee. He was eventually terminated for something else - REALLY big, so the issue resolved itself.

The union RIGHTFULLY protected him against those job performance issues. I supported that - the union DID what it was supposed to do. It's when the 'bad apples' get supported that grinds my gears!

Unfortunately, that is what appears to be the norm when cops go bad here and in too many other instances. In and of themselves, unions are NOT bad. They have a rightful place in the world of LABOR, otherwise we'd all be serfs in the kingdom without them.

[toomuchbaloney]

I don't agree that most unions function in the way that police unions do. I've been on both sides of that issue in healthcare. In my view lazy and poor management, too often, find the union to be an easy target for blame. If you have bad staff it isn't hard to develop evidence to effect change, imho, in most cases.

Consider that police have a level of legal immunity, right from the start, and consider from there. It seems that police and their unions want not only legal immunity but immunity from any consequence. This Floyd was likely prepping to retire after 20 years service with full benefits. His wife is trying to protect assets right now.

[NurseBlaq]

So all the back and forth in this thread, y'all going to ignore the fact white supremacists infiltrated law enforcement nationwide? Yes, the bunch is rotten because not saying/doing anything to stop crooked cops is just as bad as doing it yourself. And let's be honest, most of these cops being exposed now have long histories of this behavior, it isn't new. The cop that murdered Tamir Rice was deemed unsafe by another LE agency. He shouldn't have been on anybody's LE payroll. And police unions are the worst. If they're so protective of cops, why are they absent when women LEO complain? Where are they when black officers complain of racism within the force? Where are they when undercover cops say they're harassed by racist cops? There are tons of cases like this. Nurses could never!

And before the regular naysayers come with excuses, let me link a few of the numerous studies about WS infiltrating law enforcement, completed by the FBI and other federal agencies. They're called "ghost skins."

https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/white-supremacist-infiltration-of-us-police-forces-fact-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/

https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs.uoregon.edu/dist/9/13250/files/2017/11/doc-26-white-supremacist-infiltration-1-110a4e4.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/13/how-us-law-enforcement-is-failing-to-police-itself

[NewRN'16, ADN, RN]

They could learn so much! IMHO. Learn to be compassionate, caring, learn therapeutic communication, learn to de escalate situations. Learn about how various illnesses and disorders affect a person's judgement, behavior, actions and reactions..

So so much...

Bus how are they going to fit that in the short term training they get? Or are their overlords even willing to change the said "training"?

I am personally scared of cops. I can deal with a dementia pt throwing objects at me, but a cop with their hand on their firearms petrifies me .

[hppygr8ful, ASN, RN, EMT-I]

11 hours ago, NewRN'16 said:

They could learn so much! IMHO. Learn to be compassionate, caring, learn therapeutic communication, learn to de escalate situations. Learn about how various illnesses and disorders affect a person's judgement, behavior, actions and reactions..

So so much...

Bus how are they going to fit that in the short term training they get? Or are their overlords even willing to change the said "training"?

I am personally scared of cops. I can deal with a dementia pt throwing objects at me, but a cop with their hand on their firearms petrifies me .

I can't speak to the rest of the US but I do know that In California Entry Level police officers and sheriff's are required to have a Bachelor's degree to be hired most study Criminal Justice. They take prerecs, criminal psychology, sociology and many other classes. Then go through academy training which is anywhere from 9 to 18 weeks then have field training until their training officer says they are ready to be in the field.

You list a lot of great attributes that some not all nurses possess. But I've met more than a few nurses who are mean, angry jaded by their jobs and whenever a patient steps out of line and throws a food tray because not a single nurse was able to de-escalate him before it came to food throwing - they turn and call for security.

We are nurses not saints and my father once told me to walk in a man's shoes for a day before we judge him. The same kind of things that cause nurses to become mean and jaded are the same kind of things to the 10th power that cause police to become that way.

Even before I did psych I've always had a way of talking to patients to the point that I have been called to other units just to sooth a situation. I once walked into the room of an escalating patient and as I walked in a whole tray of food sailed past my head. As it hit the floor and splattered all over I looked it then to the patient and said "You might regret that because the baked ziti is one of the few things the kitchen does really well and the garlic bread is the bomb! So what seems to be the problem?" Turns out his IV site had been hurting for several hours and even though he had been complaining no one had done anything about it. There was no charting to indicate the complaint or any action taken and as we know in the legal since if it isn't charted it wasn't done. I assessed the IV found that it was only flushing sluggishly. It was more than 72 hours old so I started a new line on the opposite arm, made sure it worked and then DC'd the old site. The patient was appreciative and even remorseful about his angry outbursts. He was DC'd two days later and they never had anymore problems with him.

Hppy

[scribblz, BSN, CNA, LPN]

Lot of food for thought on this thread. Anytime you can facilitate a conversation between teams PBS and Fox News that is no small thing...

My stance is this:

I'm an easy going, educated white woman in my 30s. No cop is going to see me and perceive me as a threat. I've been pulled over while wearing my scrubs, and most cops are sympathetic and let me off with a warning. None of this should surprise anyone.

This is not the experience of many of my friends and family members of color. Depending on the timing and location...best case scenario: anxiety inducing and worst case: they are in real danger.

So to all the whataboutism I have heard on the issue of race...if you are not a person of color... your role is to open your mind to the fact that this is not happening to you. You don't get to speak to how they should feel.

Someone (I think Tricia) used the word "endemic" to describe racism in this country, and I think that term was very apt. Because we perceive endemic disease as tolerable unless it flares up to much. Well I feel as a nation we have tolerated it because it hasn't caused suffering to those who hold power and those who support them. Historically a lack of voice and attention to people suffering has frequently led to violence.

Many nurses I know have cops in their lives that they care for... there's a loyalty there and a strong desire to support. Hence the circular "a few bad apples" argument which has been slowing meaningful change since the last "flare up" in the 60s.

But, that is an emotional response, not an evidence based response. We are nurses; we problem solve outside the box every day. So as a group I hope we look at the symptoms of the disease and look into treating root causes. Funding education, healthcare services and mental health services are an excellent place to start. Recruiting officers from the communities they serve... taking feedback from those communities etc.

We are in a time of change guys... time to excise the tumors... they've metastasized quite enough.