Could the police learn something from nurses?

allnurses Guide · Jun 7, 2020

On 5/29/2020 at 10:03 PM, Davey Do said:
It is sad to hear of situations where any person is abused by professionals due to ignorance, misconceptions, or biasness.
We as professionals in certain specialties need to show a better way to those who act on a negatively subjective belief system or power play.
I have been very lucky to have worked with law enforcement officials who allowed me to take the lead in such situations. As a psychiatric community nurse, police officers I worked with would allow a report and plan before acting in a crisis situation.
As a first responder in medical trauma situations, the police responded in a similar manner.
I am sorry others have had to experience and deal with the ramifications of some incompetent professionals.

YES! I hope this results in more mental health professionals working with police and EMS.

I got to work with fellow nurses and achieve a program for Mental Health Emergency Mental Health Outreach. In spite of public service announcements and stories on local news many people don't know about it. Sometimes 911 operators still send police when family requests an ambulance for a loved on who is acting out. When they call the 800 access number the teams do a wonderful job. (But long term mental health care is difficult to find, and impossible for too many)

https://www.lacare.org/sites/default/files/universal/dmh_psychiatric_crisis_services.pdf

Deaths like this could be avoided: https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/timeline-the-kelly-thomas-case-in-fullerton/1904611/

allnurses Guide · Jun 7, 2020

On 6/6/2020 at 11:37 AM, toomuchbaloney said:
The history of the "backing" that police seem to expect from their unions is immunity from prosecution or consequence from dangerous behavior and attitudes. That's what police seem to expect from their union.

I doubt all Police Unions would support such killing.

... Lt. Bob Kroll, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, said that the union intends to provide full support to the officers.

“Now is not the time rush to judgement and immediately condemn our officers,” Kroll said. “An in-depth investigation is underway. Our officers are fully cooperating. We must review all video. We must wait for the medical examiner’s report.”...

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/26/george-floyd-man-dies-after-being-arrested-by-minneapolis-police-fbi-called-to-investigate/

allnurses Guide · Jun 7, 2020

20 hours ago, Daisy4RN said:
How are you privy to this information?

WHAT POLICE SAID,

Quote
... "Officers found Floyd in a car at the scene. He appeared intoxicated", police say. "Officers ordered him to get out of the car."
“After he got out, he physically resisted officers,” police spokesman John Elder told reporters early Tuesday. “Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and officers noticed that the man was going into medical distress.”...
"An ambulance brought Floyd to Hennepin Healthcare, where he later died, police say."
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/26/george-floyd-man-dies-after-being-arrested-by-minneapolis-police-fbi-called-to-investigate/

What really happened:

Daisy4RN · Jun 7, 2020

This is bolognas comments I was responding to:

"It's definitely helpful to counter the lies that police regularly pass of as some official report of an incident. Sometimes the videos are misleading. Frequently, police lie in their accounts"

lies that regularly pass...frequently police lie.

Although that may be true in Mr Floyds case that doesn't mean it is true (generally speaking) of all cops and statement like that do not help the situation IMO. Like someone else stated we as nurses don't all want to be judged by the bad ones and we shouldn't judge all cops by the bad ones either (or any other profession).

Daisy4RN · Jun 7, 2020

1 hour ago, herring_RN said:
YES! I hope this results in more mental health professionals working with police and EMS

Yes, this would be a good idea! It would really benefit many people IMO.

toomuchbaloney · Jun 7, 2020

On 6/7/2020 at 3:28 PM, Daisy4RN said:
This is bolognas comments I was responding to:
"It's definitely helpful to counter the lies that police regularly pass of as some official report of an incident. Sometimes the videos are misleading. Frequently, police lie in their accounts"
lies that regularly pass...frequently police lie.
Although that may be true in Mr Floyds case that doesn't mean it is true (generally speaking) of all cops and statement like that do not help the situation IMO. Like someone else stated we as nurses don't all want to be judged by the bad ones and we shouldn't judge all cops by the bad ones either (or any other profession).

How fortunate then, that I didn't claim that all cops lie or make false reports. What I did claim is soundly and clearly supported by countless clear examples of police lying, planting evidence, and escalating violent and brutal encounters. Sure, that reality makes us uncomfortable ... apparently for different reasons ... because our concerns are apparently not shared, even given the clear evidence of police malfeasance.

Daisy4RN · Jun 7, 2020

22 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:
How fortunate then, that I didn't claim that all cops lie or make false reports. What I did claim is soundly and clearly supported by countless clear examples of police lying, planting evidence, and escalating violent and brutal encounters. Sure, that reality makes us uncomfortable...apparently for different reasons...because our concerns are apparently not shared, even given the clear evidence of police malfeasance.

Not seeing your claims (that police frequently lie, or that those lies pass as fact etc.) as sound, clear or supported by countless examples

toomuchbaloney · Jun 7, 2020

40 minutes ago, Daisy4RN said:
Not seeing your claims (that police frequently lie, or that those lies pass as fact etc.) as sound, clear or supported by countless examples

So, are you having trouble finding examples of police misconduct, lying, planting evidence, violence or brutality or are you rejecting the claim that there are too many examples for me to count (countless)?

allnurses Guide · Jun 8, 2020

On 6/7/2020 at 12:36 PM, toomuchbaloney said:
How fortunate then, that I didn't claim that all cops lie or make false reports. What I did claim is soundly and clearly supported by countless clear examples of police lying, planting evidence, and escalating violent and brutal encounters. Sure, that reality makes us uncomfortable...apparently for different reasons...because our concerns are apparently not shared, even given the clear evidence of police malfeasance.

My main concern about police not telling the truth is that:

It increases the likelihood of an innocent person being convicted. And
It causes people to doubt the honesty of police officers.

Quote
March 18, 2018 ‘Testilying’ by Police: A Stubborn Problem
... An investigation by The New York Times has found that on more than 25 occasions since January 2015, judges or prosecutors determined that a key aspect of a New York City police officer’s testimony was probably untrue. The Times identified these cases — many of which are sealed — through interviews with lawyers, police officers and current and former judges.
In these cases, officers have lied about the whereabouts of guns, putting them in suspects’ hands or waistbands when they were actually hidden out of sight. They have barged into apartments and conducted searches, only to testify otherwise later. Under oath, they have given firsthand accounts of crimes or arrests that they did not in fact witness. They have falsely claimed to have watched drug deals happen, only to later recant or be shown to have lied.
No detail, seemingly, is too minor to embellish. “Clenched fists” is how one Brooklyn officer described the hands of a man he claimed had angrily approached him and started screaming and yelling — an encounter that prosecutors later determined never occurred. Another officer, during a Bronx trial, accused a driver of recklessly crossing the double-yellow line — on a stretch of road that had no double-yellow line. In many instances, the motive for lying was readily apparent: to skirt constitutional restrictions against unreasonable searches and stops. In other cases, the falsehoods appear aimed at convicting people — who may or may not have committed a crime — with trumped-up evidence...
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-police-perjury-new-york.html

Tenebrae, BSN, RN · Jun 10, 2020

On 6/8/2020 at 6:06 AM, toomuchbaloney said:
You could have resisted commenting on what you perceive as my rage. Instead you made it personal.
It's easier for a white person to deny the pervasiveness of racism in policing than it is for a POC. There are official reports describing the influence of white supremacy in our nation's police and justice systems.
The police believe they have ethical leadership.

I heard someone say that POTUS is not the beginning of the problem. And I agree with that because this problem is deep seated and entrenched and been there long before current POTUS and unless things change significantly long after

The man who shot up two mosques last year, killed 51 worshippers and wounded another 50 named Donald Trump as one of his heros.

POTUS is currently doing the equivalent of trying to put out a forrest fire by using gasoline instead of water

Tenebrae, BSN, RN · Jun 10, 2020

On 6/6/2020 at 9:23 PM, toomuchbaloney said:
That's a nice sentiment tossed out to suggest that black and poor people are as physically threatened, abused, or intimidated by professors, journalists or well meaning politically correct people as they are by police. I am sure that you have some evidence which influenced your belief. Maybe you could share so that I might better understand.

Just a random aside

I had a student nurse tell me this week as a person of colour they shouldnt expect to get top marks. In 2020.

We had another situation where at my nephews school where a teacher went around pulling down #blacklivesmatter posters

Tenebrae, BSN, RN · Jun 10, 2020

On 6/8/2020 at 3:12 AM, Daisy4RN said:
Dehumanizing any entire group of people is never going to solve any problems, including the men and women of law enforcement.

Like how those cops dehumanised George Floyd? By kneeling on his neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds. And three of those minutes were after he had no pulse.