Can an employer penalize you for calling-in due to illness?
What Members Are Saying (AI-Generated Summary)
Members are discussing the challenges of taking time off work for personal or family reasons, the impact of workplace policies on absences, and the availability of substitute nurses. Some members express frustration with policies and the difficulty of balancing work and personal responsibilities, while others highlight the need for proper utilization of substitute nurses to cover staffing shortages. There is also mention of the disparity in sick days between different professions and the impact of economic factors on staffing.
We're having some issues related to absenteeism on our unit, which resulted in our director auditing the attendance of every employee on the floor, and subsequently meeting with each and every one of us to discuss said attendance. I was given a "verbal warning", which I had to sign, due to having 3 call-ins over the last year. Yesterday, we had to take my 3-year old to Urgent Care, as it was evident he had bilateral conjunctivitis. I had to call-in today, because there's no way he could go to daycare, he needs antibiotic eye gtt TID, and has been spiking fevers of 102-103. I know from my meeting that 4 call-ins = a written warning. (At five, we lose our yearly bonus and are suspended for a couple days - it goes on from there.)
My question is - is this legal? I know my call-ins were illness-related (either my own or my 3 year old). I've gotten sick a lot over the last year, thanks in large part to working in an incredibly high-stress medical/telemetry unit and being exposed to every bug out there, which I then take home to my family, of course. I've been wading through FMLA, and it appears to me that illness would be covered, and I shouldn't be penalized for it, right?
Advice or information? I didn't find anything specific to the healthcare field in FMLA, which is the usual excuse when my employer does things like this.
If we go home sick that is can't finish our shift that counts as being absent.
I wonder if the people who work at the hospital at desks jobs such as those in billing have the same absence policy as us. If I have surgery on my foot and am in an orthopedic shoe I can't work but a someone in billing probably could .
Also - if you think about it those who are required to work say 32 hours a week compared to someone who works 16 -they should be allowed more sick time since the percentage of time they spend at work is double...the one who works 16 probably the odds are if they are sick it very well could be on their day off. The one who works 32 doubles those chances that it would be on a day they were to work. Whew now even I am confused by that...
Don't generalize, but the truth in my household is my dad probably makes 2-3x's more than a nurse. Why in the hell would he risk his job security, when all my mom has to do is just move on to another hospital or facility that's desperate for nurses?
We all have to call in at some point, but let's be smart about it..
The problem I have with that is that he isn't babysitting but rather, being a responsible father and taking equal responsibility for his kids. And the idea that the mom can "just move on ..." bothers me because it makes her look irresponsible and as though she either can't hold a job or like she doesn't care about her job or professional reputation. It diminishes the fact that she's a professional and puts her on a par with some of the people I worked with at a fast food restaurant in college -- if restaurant A fires me, there's always restaurant B and if B fires me, it's OK because I can always use a few days off before I try restaurant C or D.
The problem I have with that is that he isn't babysitting but rather, being a responsible father and taking equal responsibility for his kids. And the idea that the mom can "just move on ..." bothers me because it makes her look irresponsible and as though she either can't hold a job or like she doesn't care about her job or professional reputation. It diminishes the fact that she's a professional and puts her on a par with some of the people I worked with at a fast food restaurant in college -- if restaurant A fires me, there's always restaurant B and if B fires me, it's OK because I can always use a few days off before I try restaurant C or D.
sharpeimom:paw::paw:
Im not the smartest person in the world and Im pretty young. I know with age, wisdom should come.
It depends on how you look at the situation:
"taking equal responsibility for his kids." If your spouse makes 2-3x more money and is paying the mortgage and the majority of bills (which is a necessity), I think it would be RESPONSIBLE to make sure that his/her job is not in jeopardy especially if you know you can always get another job that respects your decision to keep your kids first.
Im not advocating bouncing from job to job but Who cares what others think? A responsible mother/father would stay @ home for his/her children if he/she is able and feel that he/she should....
If you still have a problem, I really don't know what else to type. Either you're willing to sacrifice or not.
And trust me, Im not saying it should only be women who stay home with the kids... If you're able to take turns, do so. If your husband or wife cant, you should. Just apply common sense...
Im not the smartest person in the world and Im pretty young. I know with age, wisdom should come.
It depends on how you look at the situation:
"taking equal responsibility for his kids." If your spouse makes 2-3x more money and is paying the mortgage and the majority of bills (which is a necessity), I think it would be RESPONSIBLE to make sure that his/her job is not in jeopardy especially if you know you can always get another job that respects your decision to keep your kids first.
Im not advocating bouncing from job to job but Who cares what others think? A responsible mother/father would stay @ home for his/her children if he/she is able and feel that he/she should....
If you still have a problem, I really don't know what else to type. Either you're willing to sacrifice or not.
I assume if our hypothetical father's job is that solid and provides for his family so well, that it also comes with either paid sick leave, PTO, or both and it's his responsibility to use some of that leave. Neither parent should be the only one to take sick time (if they do indeed have it to be taken), I just meant the father should take it sometimes if he has it to take. And, just for the record, I don't date back to George Washington's day! You sound like the some of the college students my husband teaches -- anyone over the age of 35, or so, is totally out of touch with reality... It's a darn good thing patients, other nurses and the docs I worked with had more faith in my abilities and powers of reason than you seem to have.
When there is a husband present...or not...why don't they take time off? It seems always the woman's position to do so...it was a 50/50 reproduction thing!
I once worked with a woman - a mother of three grown kids, still happily married to their father - who believed that a man being absent from work because of a spouse's or child's illness should be a firing offense.
And if he has no wife?
"Then his mother should step in."
And what if his mother is dead or lives 2,000 miles away?
Then I guess he was stuck.
And her father raised her on his own after her mom left when she was a baby, back in the days when that kind of thing was totally unheard of.
I once worked with a woman - a mother of three grown kids, still happily married to their father - who believed that a man being absent from work because of a spouse's or child's illness should be a firing offense.
And if he has no wife?
"Then his mother should step in."
And what if his mother is dead or lives 2,000 miles away?
Then I guess he was stuck.
And her father raised her on his own after her mom left when she was a baby, back in the days when that kind of thing was totally unheard of.
Women calling in - that was okay.
Made no sense to me either.
All I could think of as I read the above conversation was that old Abbott and Costello routine "Who's On First." You must have been soooo frustrated!
Specializes in pediatrics, geriatrics, med-surg, ccu,.
Looking from both sides of the issue, both have valid points. Your director was having issues with having call-ins. Not one person was singled out, she did the same with all of the staff in her department in an effort to decrease the number of call-ins.
I used to never think about it until I had to deal with call-ins and trying to find replacement of that staff member. We have a few staff members that leave very little room for finding someone to replace them on short notice. 3 years ago I would not have even thought about it from this perspective.
On the other side of the coin, I thought that this same facility was being "unreasonable" in their absenteism policy. I was one of those people that was using alot of sick time. Unfortunately, I have had to go to part time, have FMLA in place as I do have a chronic illness that will be with me the rest of my life, and also have had to give up my passion of doing hands on nursing care. And changed jobs within the facility to be able to stay in nursing part time.
First, I count myself lucky that the facility I am in was willing to work with me. It took the HR department, my doctor, and alot of paperwork to get to the point I am at.
Sick time is there for you when you need it. Policies are also there for a reason. Your facility has to look at it as a "whole" and many facilities are making it more and more difficult to be able to acrue sick time. Hospitals are like any other business. It has to have policies in place to be able to staff that same hospital and when absences occur.
As I said, I never thought about it until I am the one who is trying to fill the void. I don't blame the person who is calling in, just saying that it is not easier for the person trying to uphold their facilities policies.
No matter what your personal opinion is on it, as directors, supervisors, DON, or other titles that are held in this position, we have to base decisions on what the policies state. And where I work, I do not have the luxury of changing these, nor regardless of how sympathetic I am to the person calling in, I still am required to follow the rules and policies set by the facility that I work for.
I would however, review your hospital's policies. We have a handbook that has it spelled out. We have 6 sick days in a 12 month rolling calendar. Tardiness counts as a .5 point. Calling in counts as 1 point, 2 points for calling in on a holiday that you are scheduled, you can be off in consecutive days in a row and it will only count as 1 point, if you are out 3 days, it requires a doctor's slip to be able to return to work.
Unless you have FMLA excusing you, you will acrue points for absences. If you call in for any other reason than what is written on the FMLA defined illness, it still counts as a point. After 4 unexcused absences, you recieve a verbal warning,after the fifth unexcused absence it is a written warning, after the 6th absence you can be terminated.
Using FMLA, the FMLA has to be approved by your HR department, You cannot use FMLA if you have not worked 250 hours in your present place of employment. Chronic illness is interpreted differently by different employers and for the most part, you will have to look at your own facilities views on it. The paperwork for FMLA has to be very specific and you can use it up to 12 weeks concurrently or intermittently but you are only allowed the 12 weeks per year. Each year the paperwork has to be re-submitted. You have to be under the care of a physician and seeing that physician at least once in a 3 month time period.
It is not that easily obtained. I have to show proof of being treated for this chronic illness in order to maintain it. What that means is that the facility that I work for has alot of medical information on me that isn't any of their business, but is neccessary for me to stay employed. So this is not always a avenue to utilize.
Personally, I think it is rather harsh after only having 4 absences but I certainly can see the other side of it as well. It could be worse, the facility doesn't have to allow any exceptions to at all. There are facilities that have a "zero" tolerance. No verbal or written warnings, just termination.
Myself, I count myself extremely lucky to be working where I am, they could have terminated me instead of working with me to solve health issues and being able to work.
If our staff members would not come in sick to work, we'd have a lot less absences. Why someone who is coughing, nose running and febrile thinks they should work is beyond me. I would think they'd want truly ill nurses and staff to stay home. We have been passing around the flu on our unit that way the past 3 weeks, 6 of 12 have been ill. This weekend it is me....I feel like crud, with a fever of 101, sore throat and cough. Ireally hate to call in because I have FMLA for rheumatoid arthritis., and what my manager can't get through her head is that when I am on antibiotics or really ill, I can't take my methotrexate or biologic injections, so I end up having to have FMLA days after the antibiotics until the RA meds can be taken and kick in...vicious cycle.
I have to comment on the person who makes more $$ should go to work. I understand that in theory it makes sense, but I'll tell you some personal points that go against that theory.
I went through the same scenario with my 'honey' telling me to look at it from a common sense point of view. I should stay home because he made more than I. After moving from insignificant job to insignifcant job because I have 2 children that tend to be sick alot, I began to really feel awful. My 'honey' loved it because he could 'work' or whatever more. My self esteem plummetted because it was all on me. It's really hard to go from job A to job B to job C. It was a difficult time for me.
My children are now 12 and 8 so I can stay at a job now. If they're sick, I demand my 'honey' do his part as well. I also work pm's so I can be home during the day if they're sick and he needs to come home just a couple of hours early to take over. He hates it! I just laugh and take my butt to work! I've got my confidence back, can maintain a job, and he has to be part of caring for his children too! If I had it all to do over, I would have fought like a mad woman to handle it differently than I did. It still may have ended up the same way, but I would have gone down fighting for a different way!
I just read the teachers in our area are trying to get a raise...with all the major companies in our area laying off people it left a bad taste in my mouth. Yes they do alot but this is not the time to picket for more money when people are out of work. Then I read where they have 15 sick days a year (8-9 months really since summers are out). Again they do a lot but jeez. 15 days? Too bad we don't have substitute nurses like they have substitute teaches....so they can take their 15 days....
Again If we only have 5 days. I think if we come in on off days for other sick nurses one of our sick days that we have used should fall off. Erasing it. People would not come to work sick knowing they could eventually work that day off by coming in for someone else. Plus employees wouldn't feel so worthless when they get sick after having so many isolation or flu or conjunctivitis patients etc. AGAIN people won't come to work sick!!!
I just read the teachers in our area are trying to get a raise...with all the major companies in our area laying off people it left a bad taste in my mouth. Yes they do alot but this is not the time to picket for more money when people are out of work. Then I read where they have 15 sick days a year (8-9 months really since summers are out). Again they do a lot but jeez. 15 days? Too bad we don't have substitute nurses like they have substitute teaches....so they can take their 15 days....
We DO have substitute nurses - they are called agency nurses and PRN nurses. If these nurses were properly utilized, staff nurses could take their sick days without the unit being left short.
.thumb.jpg.421493329dd1f136a4222fe8e9399213.jpg){kind=small}
RedWeasel, RN
428 Posts
Also - if you think about it those who are required to work say 32 hours a week compared to someone who works 16 -they should be allowed more sick time since the percentage of time they spend at work is double...the one who works 16 probably the odds are if they are sick it very well could be on their day off. The one who works 32 doubles those chances that it would be on a day they were to work. Whew now even I am confused by that...