ATI Appeal

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Jun 21, 2012

I just don't get it. Why most colleges now are so into ATI? Why based your grade as pass or fail? Back in the days when ATI does not exist, students were able to pass it.

I'm sure we've all seen nursing students, full of pride in their schools, try to compare how much harder their program is with incomparable metrics. Most frequently seen are silly peeing matches over who has the harder grading scale (percentages mean nothing when the questions are different). Well, schools do want to compare.

The only universal metric is NCLEX pass rate. However, NCLEX pass rate is somewhat meaningless because it fails to account for student filtering (attrition by class or program exit exams) and it doesn't tell a school where it is strong or weak. The ATI, and its competitors, offer a standardized tool to gauge student and program performance by class and by program within a cohort, between cohorts, and between schools. It even breaks down performance by sub-discipline within a class. You've seen these subject breakdowns as well as the performance rating within your program and on the national level in your ATI results.

Some schools use this as primarily a learning tool that counts for part of a grade. Other programs have decided to use ATI as a defining minimum performance metric. Which is the better method? I like the former, but I can see how some programs can keep their NCLEX pass rates within spec by using ATI as a cutoff.

DaveBSN · Jul 3, 2012

ATI's pretests in many cases are full of incorrect and outdated information. Their post-graduation 3 day NCLEX review is a dog & pony show. I relied solely on that review and the material provided to take my NCLEX and I failed. ATI is a tool used by schools to maintain their accreditation and nothing more. ATI is about making money and I have even had a professor of mine admit to me that she was fairly sure that nurses were not making up the content on the ATI tests. I have taken 100's of snapshots of ATI questions with snipping tool (found in windows 7) and shared them with nurses who flat out say they are wrong! For instance, ATI believes that nurses are the ones who ensure a patient understands a surgical procedure they have upcoming when in fact that is the physicians responsibility. ATI also does not know the difference between side effects and adverse side effects. ATI believes that nurses are responsible for helping victims of physical abuse develop escape plans the next time they are abused. Of course, ALL of these are WRONG. All their NCLEX review did for me was have me study materials I wasn't even tested on when I took my NCLEX. ATI is a complete waste of time and effort. I graduated an accredited university with a Bachelors in Nursing with a 3.25gpa and failed the NCLEX because I relied on ATI to provide a quality review and used their materials to study. What I got turned out to be a bad joke and now a horrible situation. There's a reason ATI doesn't want anyone copying their questions on tests. There's a reason ATI reps won't speak directly to students. There's a reason you can never get a nurse on the line to speak to at ATI. They are trying to cover up the fact that they are in the business of making money, not educating students.

iloveyouuux3 · Dec 27, 2012

This situation is very similar to what is going on in my school at the moment. This is the first semester that ATI is counting as part of our grade... (10%) and because of the proctored exams, myself and two of my friends are going to fail the semester. My nursing program decided to change the grading requirements this semester (6 months before we graduate) just because they got accredited. If you ask me, I think it is complete BS. ATI is extremely inconsistent, not only with the information provided in the books they give you, but also with how the proctored exams are graded. Now, just because we got a level 1 on our proctored exams, we will fail the semester. I don’t think it is fair at all for ATI to be the determinant as to whether or not we pass. In my school, a 76.5 is considered "passing" and our test averages are well above 77.

The way it works: we get 4/10 points for handing in the practice tests (which we need to hand in any way to take our classroom exams) and the remaining 6 points come from whatever we get on the proctored exams. Level 1 and below level 1 get 0/6 pts. Level 2 gets 5.5/6 points and level 3 gets 6/6 points. So this means, that is I were to get a 90 on all of my tests, and a level 1 on the proctored exam, i will finish with a B and not an A-. Tell me now, is this fair?

My question: which schools use ATI as part of their grading system, and if so what % is ATI worth? Also, how many points are allocated for each level?

I have NEVER been fond of ATI since day 1 and 97% of my senior class is in agreement.

It really is a shame because I know for a fact that my friends and I will be excellent nurses. For my school to fail people just because of ATI is extremely ridiculous. I’ve even called ATI to find out what numerical grade is required for each level and the lady said she couldn’t tell me or she would get in trouble! I started to cry because my grade depended on it, obviously, and then she told me the grade needed for a level 2, but told me not to tell anyone because she could get in trouble. How is it that ATI can treat their customers as such, yet still be in business?!? I truly don’t understand ATI at all, I pay $650 for ATI and I’m not even allowed to know what number grade I need to achieve to get a level 2?!?! That’s honestly what shocked me the most. I DO plan on calling the better business bureau as soon as this situation is resolved.

nurseprnRN, BSN, RN · Dec 27, 2012

What possible difference does it make to know what "number grade" you need to have to pass it? You won't change the way you prepare, presumably-- or would you just say, "Screw it, I only need a 45, so I'm not going to study that much"? Seems to me the mature response would be, "Well, then, I'd better work hard to do my best, because I really don't want to find myself close to the line!"

And with respect, it doesn't matter whether your class thinks the same way you do, and it REALLY doesn't matter that you "know for a fact that (your friends and you) will be excellent nurses." You don't know any such thing, especially given the recent research that indicates people consistently overestimate their fabulousness.

You are showing the "It isn't FAIR!!" response that most people grow into at 13, and outgrow by the time they're old enough to graduate from college.

The BBB won't give your complaint a second thought, either. Suck it up and deal, as my kid would say.

nurseprnRN, BSN, RN · Dec 27, 2012

What possible difference does it make to know what "number grade" you need to have to pass it? You won't change the way you prepare, presumably-- or would you just say, "Screw it, I only need a 45, so I'm not going to study that much"? Seems to me the mature response would be, "Well, then, I'd better work hard to do my best, because I really don't want to find myself close to the line!"

And with respect, it doesn't matter whether your class thinks the same way you do, and it REALLY doesn't matter that you "know for a fact that (your friends and you) will be excellent nurses." You don't know any such thing, especially given the recent research that indicates people consistently overestimate their fabulousness.

You are showing the "It isn't FAIR!!" response that most people grow into at 13, and outgrow by the time they're old enough to graduate from college.

The BBB won't give your complaint a second thought, either. Suck it up and deal, as my kid would say.

x_factor · Dec 27, 2012

This reminds me of the LPN program I was in. One semester a few students failed Fundamentals, and had to sit out an entire semester before re-taking it. They whined and screamed how "unfair" it was, wanted to run to the nursing board, the dean and anyone else they could whine to over how unfair it was that they had slacked off all semester and failed the class. One screamed how the class was "impossible" to pass. Really? I passed it with a 98.

If people spent half as much time studying as they did whining, maybe they wouldn't have as much to whine about.

rubato, ASN, RN · Dec 27, 2012

This situation is very similar to what is going on in my school at the moment. This is the first semester that ATI is counting as part of our grade... (10%) and because of the proctored exams, myself and two of my friends are going to fail the semester. My nursing program decided to change the grading requirements this semester (6 months before we graduate) just because they got accredited. If you ask me, I think it is complete BS. ATI is extremely inconsistent, not only with the information provided in the books they give you, but also with how the proctored exams are graded. Now, just because we got a level 1 on our proctored exams, we will fail the semester. I don't think it is fair at all for ATI to be the determinant as to whether or not we pass. In my school, a 76.5 is considered "passing" and our test averages are well above 77.
The way it works: we get 4/10 points for handing in the practice tests (which we need to hand in any way to take our classroom exams) and the remaining 6 points come from whatever we get on the proctored exams. Level 1 and below level 1 get 0/6 pts. Level 2 gets 5.5/6 points and level 3 gets 6/6 points. So this means, that is I were to get a 90 on all of my tests, and a level 1 on the proctored exam, i will finish with a B and not an A-. Tell me now, is this fair?
My question: which schools use ATI as part of their grading system, and if so what % is ATI worth? Also, how many points are allocated for each level?
I have NEVER been fond of ATI since day 1 and 97% of my senior class is in agreement.
It really is a shame because I know for a fact that my friends and I will be excellent nurses. For my school to fail people just because of ATI is extremely ridiculous. I've even called ATI to find out what numerical grade is required for each level and the lady said she couldn't tell me or she would get in trouble! I started to cry because my grade depended on it, obviously, and then she told me the grade needed for a level 2, but told me not to tell anyone because she could get in trouble. How is it that ATI can treat their customers as such, yet still be in business?!? I truly don't understand ATI at all, I pay $650 for ATI and I'm not even allowed to know what number grade I need to achieve to get a level 2?!?! That's honestly what shocked me the most. I DO plan on calling the better business bureau as soon as this situation is resolved.

ATI is worth 10% of our grade also. I'm fine with it. I knew going into this semester that that's the way it was.

It is fair. You know why? Because your nursing school decided this is how they were going to grade their students and you didn't meet their requirements. Sorry, but that's just the way the world of adults works.

GracyMae · Jan 5, 2013

If you can't pass the ATI, your chances of passing the NCLEX are low, so it's within the school's best interest to not pass students who can't pass the ATI.

I disagree. I know many people who went to schools that required ATI testing - they passed the cumulative ATI exam at the end, which supposedly proved they had a 90-something % chance of passing NCLEX, but they did not pass the NCLEX. I also know people who have failed ATIs and passed NCLEX. ATI is not as good of a determiner of passing NCLEX as some might think.

-----------------------------------

Sparkleshine1210 - I totally feel your pain!!

The kicker is that students have to study for each semester's ATI test on their own time - it is not part of the curriculum. They have a book to study for the class and they have a separate book to study ON THEIR OWN for the ATI test. I think it makes no sense that you can pass all of your classes (i.e.- show you have learned whatever the school was trying to teach you) and then not get to get your diploma because you failed the ATI test that you had to try to study for on your own time ... when you did not have any extra time. If the school really feels that passing ATI = passing NCLEX, then they need to start teaching the same stuff (or same level of stuff) that is in the ATI books.

In other words, if schools are going to link ATI grades to being able to pass classes and continue on each semester and to being able to graduate, then they need to start teaching from the ATI books! If failing an ATI means that you have to fail the class you're taking in the same semester (even though you actually passed every test and assignment in the class), then apparently, the school considers ATI information to be more important than the stuff they are teaching in the class. If the ATI material is more important, then schools should teach the student FROM THE ATI BOOKS! That way, they would learn the apparently "important" stuff AND they would pass their ATIs ... which by the school's logic would mean that they would pass NCLEX ... which would also be good for the school's continued accreditation and funding.

Makes sense to me!

Ideally, the ATI test for each semester is supposed to go with the material in the class that is being taught that same semester, but that was never the case in our school. The stuff we got in class was like elementary school and the stuff we needed to know for ATI was like graduate school. So, the classes did not really prepare you for the ATI tests - so it never made any sense to any of us as to why when someone failed the ATI test, their punishment was to go back and retake the class (even when they had already passed everything in the class). That makes no sense. Why would failing an ATI mean you need to go back and waste a semester (time and money) taking a class that is not going to prepare you for or help you with taking the ATI test again??? This system is severely flawed!

I'm not sure if you are making a grade appeal or an appeal to change policy, but good luck, Sparkleshine1210!! If you haven't already, maybe you could make some of the arguments I have pointed out, here.

[please pardon any typos I've missed - it's late and I'm tired and this topic hit such familiar nerve with me that I just started typing feverishly in response]

x_factor · Jan 5, 2013

You started nursing school knowing they had a set guideline of expectations. This whining about ATI being too difficult or whining about how they didn't spoon-feed it to you in class so it's not fair that you have to read the books on your own time, is the equivalent to students who fail a class and then blame the teacher and scream "unfair!" while running to the dean.

ATI is a part of many nursing programs. Students enter into these programs knowing from the day of orientation at the latest, that ATI will be used as a requirement for progression through the program, and what the consequences are if you fall below the required level. Seriously, take responsibility for your education, and quit blaming the teacher, the program, the school, the exam, and whoever else people want to place the blame on instead of spending their time evaluating why they failed, and how they can do better.

GracyMae · Jan 5, 2013

It is fair. You know why? Because your nursing school decided this is how they were going to grade their students and you didn't meet their requirements. Sorry, but that's just the way the world of adults works.

:no: Your comment comes across as being condescending and snarky and not really constructive, well-meaning, or helpful at all. Just because a nursing school decides on a certain way of doing things does not make it right and does not even make it make sense - AND ... has nothing to do with how the "world of adults works." :arghh:

The fact of the matter is that it is a seriously flawed system when these schools link ATI-passing to class-passing (and graduation) when the information/material to learn in each are not even remotely in the same realm (class = elementary school material, but ATI = graduate school material) ... and also when the school requires the student to learn ATI on their own time and does not teach ATI in the class. If someone passes all tests and assignments in a class, then they should be allowed to move forward and not be systematically failed out of the class because of ATI and the school's accreditation issues. ATI relevance should be separate from the class relevance IF it is not going to be taught as part of the class. ATI was worth 10% of the total points in our classes too, but they were only extra points. So, if you passed ATI, you got extra points, but if you failed ATI, you did not lose those points from your grade. So, people could end up with an A in the class, but if they did not reach a level 2.5 on ATI, then they were failed out of the class, even though they actually made an A in the class. If passing ATI = passing the class (ultimately), then teach the class from the more intense ATI books!!!!!! :banghead:

AND ... If Pass ATI = Pass NCLEX (in some schools' eyes) = Even better! Problem solved :up:

My point is that failing ATI should mean doing something else besides having to go back and retake a class that: A) you've already aced; and B) is not going to help you pass the ATI when you have to take it again. If passing ATI tests is so important to the schools, then they should take some responsibility in teaching the ATI to the students and not leave them out their hanging on their own time trying to study the ATI books on their own time, in between all of their other classes and trying to learn and interpret it all on their own. :drowning:

I feel your pain, iloveyouuux3 !! :yes:

Our school went through the exact same BS. The students who are there now are in the midst of working with the dean and trying to change the entire ATI policy at the school. If you ban together with all of your classmates - even the ones who did pass ATI - and construct some good arguments (feel free to use some of mine if you like) and go to the Dean, you CAN get things changed ... hopefully!!! Good Luck!! :)

x_factor · Jan 5, 2013

Your comment comes across as being condescending and snarky and not really constructive, well-meaning, or helpful at all. Just because a nursing school decides on a certain way of doing things does not make it right and does not even make it make sense - AND ... has nothing to do with how the "world of adults works."

In this case it does. ATI is a national program that many schools use, with the ATI exams used as a guideline for progression through their program. Many students pass the exams just fine, yet the ones who do not want to whine and blame the school for the unfairness. In the case of the school using ATI, they are right. It's a part of their program that you signed up for. It's like signing up for a math class and being angry that there's math problems on the exams. Once again, take responsibility for your education and quit looking to place the blame on everyone else.

GracyMae · Jan 5, 2013

The problem is that a lot of times, the way some of these programs are run does not make any sense.

Don't assume that someone who protests a way of doing things is not taking responsibility for themselves. :no: I never failed an ATI test, myself - but that doesn't blind me to the fact that the system I speak about is flawed! When we got in our school, yes we understood the ATI policy - that you failed the class IF you failed ATI. BUT!...What we did NOT understand is how LITTLE the class had to do with the ATI test. There was no way for us to know that until we had already been through the class and taken the ATI. Had we known that at orientation, we could have stood up and said, "Wait a minute. Why would we retake the class if we pass it, but fail ATI? The material between the two is not even congruent. There must be another solution because that makes no sense." :banghead:

Therefore .... It makes no sense to have to retake a class that you've already passed when it does nothing to prepare you for the ATI test. My argument is that the penalty for not making the ATI level should be something ELSE besides going back and redoing a class that you've already aced. The class did not help prepare you for ATI so why retake the class when you fail ATI? That's a waste of time and money. There needs to be some other answer for ATI Failure. I'm not saying there should be no penalty, but the penalty should be something else - something that makes sense and helps solve the problem of ATI failure.

AND, if ATI is so important (apparently more important than the class), then the school might want to consider teaching using ATI or help prepare the students better for ATI in some way, since ATI is the focus and not the class material. That's all I'm say'n, folks :nurse: