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ATI Appeal

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You are reading page 3 of ATI Appeal. If you want to start from the beginning Go to First Page.

In this case it does. ATI is a national program that many schools use, with the ATI exams used as a guideline for progression through their program. Many students pass the exams just fine, yet the ones who do not want to whine and blame the school for the unfairness. In the case of the school using ATI, they are right. It's a part of their program that you signed up for. It's like signing up for a math class and being angry that there's math problems on the exams. Once again, take responsibility for your education and quit looking to place the blame on everyone else.

You're totally missing my point .... :banghead:

Maybe I explained it better in my other post.

Otherwise, nevermind.

In this case it does. ATI is a national program that many schools use, with the ATI exams used as a guideline for progression through their program. Many students pass the exams just fine, yet the ones who do not want to whine and blame the school for the unfairness. In the case of the school using ATI, they are right. It's a part of their program that you signed up for. It's like signing up for a math class and being angry that there's math problems on the exams. Once again, take responsibility for your education and quit looking to place the blame on everyone else.

1. If ATI were used as a guideline for progression, would not the school teach solely ATI information? You cannot measure progression of a nursing class with an exit nursing exam. I think many schools use ATI as a way to get students to understand the nursing process and critical thinking, which is a good idea for NCLEX. However, if for example, the school expects students to know lab values and ATI is required to pass, the school should teach ATI values not the values the school goes by. If the school believes that their values are more correct than ATI, ATI should not be a make it or break it point, OR those questions that differ in answer than what the school provides should be thrown out.

2. If "many students pass the exams just fine," I find it odd that many post about the unfairness of ATI. If it were not a problem, I am sure every school would use ATI.

3. Math problems on a math exam is a given. NCLEX level questions for a 1st semester class is not.

4. Finally, the school needs to take some responsibility for teaching students about ATI. Would you be angry if your nursing instructor threw you a med-surg book, told you, you need to know it for the test in 2 months, then went on to talk about Nursing history for those 2 months. Then, when the test came, you failed it, therefore failed the test. I think everyone would be a little upset because the instructor failed to go through ATI at all in the class, therefore you have to learn about Nursing history again, even though Nursing history had nothing to do with ATI.

Not saying you're wrong, but not saying you're right either. I agree with GracyMae in that the penalty for not passing ATI should be reduced, such as awarding points for passing, and not awarding points for failing but having to do a remediation.

1. If ATI were used as a guideline for progression, would not the school teach solely ATI information? You cannot measure progression of a nursing class with an exit nursing exam. I think many schools use ATI as a way to get students to understand the nursing process and critical thinking, which is a good idea for NCLEX. However, if for example, the school expects students to know lab values and ATI is required to pass, the school should teach ATI values not the values the school goes by. If the school believes that their values are more correct than ATI, ATI should not be a make it or break it point, OR those questions that differ in answer than what the school provides should be thrown out.

2. If "many students pass the exams just fine," I find it odd that many post about the unfairness of ATI. If it were not a problem, I am sure every school would use ATI.

3. Math problems on a math exam is a given. NCLEX level questions for a 1st semester class is not.

4. Finally, the school needs to take some responsibility for teaching students about ATI. Would you be angry if your nursing instructor threw you a med-surg book, told you, you need to know it for the test in 2 months, then went on to talk about Nursing history for those 2 months. Then, when the test came, you failed it, therefore failed the test. I think everyone would be a little upset because the instructor failed to go through ATI at all in the class, therefore you have to learn about Nursing history again, even though Nursing history had nothing to do with ATI.

Not saying you're wrong, but not saying you're right either. I agree with GracyMae in that the penalty for not passing ATI should be reduced, such as awarding points for passing, and not awarding points for failing but having to do a remediation.

EXACTLY! :yes:

I'm not against ATI - I think their practice assessments and many things they offer are wonderful tools for nursing students. I don't disagree with nursing schools using ATI as a benchmarking tool to see where students are in their progress. I don't disagree with nursing schools using ATI for their own accreditation purposes. But, to gauge whether or not the students can move forward in or graduate from the school's program based on their ATI performance instead of their school performance, while at the SAME time NOT taking any responsibility for actually teaching ATI information is absurd and unreasonable.

Students can pass all of their classes, yet schools can deny students their degrees if they don't reach a certain level on a test that can SUPPOSEDLY predict whether or not they can pass the NCLEX?? I know several people who passed the ATI predictor test but ended up failing NCLEX miserably. NCLEX is for licensure. Licensure is AFTER graduation. Call me crazy, but I think it is wrong for a school to deny a passing student their diploma just because one test supposedly (and possibly inaccurately) predicts that they won't be able to pass the NCLEX at a future time. Schools do it to protect their image for NCLEX pass rates (for accreditaion and funding purposes), but it is wrong. :no:

For those who want to just write it off as "whining" and "not taking responsibility" - read the ENTIRE content of all posts. I have not personally failed any ATI or class. I am simply presenting a valid argument against a flawed system of measurement in SOME nursing schools (not all schools do it this way) in need of serious reconsideration and revision. I am simply validating the frustration of the people I know who have dealt with the particular situation that was presented by Sparkleshine1201 in the original post. That's all. Thanks.

JustBeachyNurse, RN

Specializes in Complex pediatrics turned LTC/subacute geriatrics. Has 11 years experience.

This is why some boards of nursing have taken action, like this from NJ BoN that was made effective this past fall:

http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/nursing/DeanNDirectorLtr.pdf

Schools of nursing in NJ cannot use a commercially prepared exit exam (whether HESI, ATI or other exam) as an artificial barrier to graduation or progression in the program.

this is why some boards of nursing have taken action, like this from nj bon that was made effective this past fall:

http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/nursing/deanndirectorltr.pdf

schools of nursing in nj cannot use a commercially prepared exit exam (whether hesi, ati or other exam) as an artificial barrier to graduation or progression in the program.

thank you for posting this!!

However, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't actively seek out learning outside of your classroom and clinicals. Believe me, if you don't get the life-long intellectual curiosity, love of learning habit while you are in school you will begin to fall behind the day you graduate. I believe somebody posted how unfair it was that the exam tested material you didn't have in lecture and you had to study on your own. Bingo. Guess what? Your jobs will test you, daily, on things you didn't learn in school, and you will have to study on your own to pass as a nurse (little pun there).

This does not mean that your nursing school failed to teach you everything you need to know to be a nurse. It means that using critical thinking in the nursing process (assess, evaluate, analyze, and develop a plan of action) is THE most important thing you will learn, because that's what you will hang all your subsequent learning on.

However, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't actively seek out learning outside of your classroom and clinicals. Believe me, if you don't get the life-long intellectual curiosity, love of learning habit while you are in school you will begin to fall behind the day you graduate. I believe somebody posted how unfair it was that the exam tested material you didn't have in lecture and you had to study on your own. Bingo. Guess what? Your jobs will test you, daily, on things you didn't learn in school, and you will have to study on your own to pass as a nurse (little pun there).

This does not mean that your nursing school failed to teach you everything you need to know to be a nurse. It means that using critical thinking in the nursing process (assess, evaluate, analyze, and develop a plan of action) is THE most important thing you will learn, because that's what you will hang all your subsequent learning on.

Absolutely! A nursing school cannot and will not teach their students everything they are going to need to know as nurses. That's a given. The uncountable things nurses come to know over time come from too many sources to list. But, that is not the issue being discussed here. I agree with you on consulting sources outside of what nursing schools provide - I am always seeking to know more and more from many different sources. Constantly. You can never learn too much. :)

rubato, ASN, RN

Specializes in Oncology/hematology.

:no: Your comment comes across as being condescending and snarky and not really constructive, well-meaning, or helpful at all. Just because a nursing school decides on a certain way of doing things does not make it right and does not even make it make sense - AND ... has nothing to do with how the "world of adults works." :arghh:

Sorry you see it that way, but here's the point. She knew what the expectations were going into this semester. She didn't meet them. It matters not that they changed the rules on her last semester. It matters not that ATI is a good or bad idea. She was given the guidelines for what would be required in order to pass the semester. She did not meet those expectations.

My comment does not have to be constructive or helpful in your sense. It was intended to highlight that maybe, just maybe, this is just life, and you're going to have to live with the consequences of not meeting the guidelines of your school. This will follow you into the real world. It's just the way that it is.

I have taken several ATI exams and scored a Level 3 in all. Do I imagine this means I will pass NCLEX with 75 questions? NO! Absolutely not!

Because our school doesn't incorporate the ATI into the classroom (yet--we started ATI this past year), I was forced to study the ATI book prior to the ATI exams, on my own time. I did not find the ATI exams congruent with much I learned in the classroom. And in fact, they didn't have much to do with the ATI books EITHER. The exams didn't even resemble the practice assessments they give. I am having a very hard time imagining students have raised their NCLEX results based on studying ATI (ATI ads do more than suggest that schools who have contracted with them have raised their NCLEX pass rates). I think the entire experience has been a giant waste of my money.

I truly feel bad for anyone who doesn't succeed at ATI and therefore is failed from a class or a program. If you scored well on your school exams and couldn't pass ATI, then your school has a problem. If you weren't doing well in school to begin with, then unfortunately I think there is something lacking in your preparation and ability.

If students pass the core requirements for a nursing program, let them take NCLEX. If the administration is not confident their students can succeed, those students shouldn't have passed the nursing classes to begin with.

:no: Your comment comes across as being condescending and snarky and not really constructive, well-meaning, or helpful at all. Just because a nursing school decides on a certain way of doing things does not make it right and does not even make it make sense - AND ... has nothing to do with how the "world of adults works." :arghh:

Sorry you see it that way, but here's the point. She knew what the expectations were going into this semester. She didn't meet them. It matters not that they changed the rules on her last semester. It matters not that ATI is a good or bad idea. She was given the guidelines for what would be required in order to pass the semester. She did not meet those expectations.

My comment does not have to be constructive or helpful in your sense. It was intended to highlight that maybe, just maybe, this is just life, and you're going to have to live with the consequences of not meeting the guidelines of your school. This will follow you into the real world. It's just the way that it is.

Yes. You are correct - your comment doesn't HAVE to be constructive or helpful or anything - it can be just as condescending and judgmental and as stating-the-obvious and as unhelpful as you want it to be.

However, just because something is a policy somewhere doesn't make it a good policy - doesn't make it something that people should just sit back and blindly accept because, "Oh well! That is the way the world is!" The fact of the matter is, Sparkleshine1210 wants to file an appeal. Like many of the students at my school, she probably did not understand how utterly nonsensical the ATI policy was until she got on the wrong side of it. So, she wants to try to make a change because she sees an injustice happening. And she apparently is not being unreasonable because apparently it IS an injustice, or else New Jersey Board of Nursing would not have done what they did when they ruled that ATI and other exit exams could no longer be used as artificial bars against graduation and sitting for the NCLEX. Obviously, the New Jersey students took a stand and look what it got them - CHANGE. Yes, the world is the way it is, but when people take a chance and go out on a limb to try to get unreasonable policies or anything else changed, that should not be shot down by people who just want to put their head in the sand or lay down and let bad policies steamroll over them because they've given up and succumbed to the belief that you're not supposed to try to change anything because somewhere along the line, they agreed to be governed by something that doesn't make any sense or because "that's just life." No, that's just sad :down:

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

I have taken several ATI exams and scored a Level 3 in all. Do I imagine this means I will pass NCLEX with 75 questions? NO! Absolutely not!

Because our school doesn't incorporate the ATI into the classroom (yet--we started ATI this past year), I was forced to study the ATI book prior to the ATI exams, on my own time. I did not find the ATI exams congruent with much I learned in the classroom. And in fact, they didn't have much to do with the ATI books EITHER. The exams didn't even resemble the practice assessments they give. I am having a very hard time imagining students have raised their NCLEX results based on studying ATI (ATI ads do more than suggest that schools who have contracted with them have raised their NCLEX pass rates). I think the entire experience has been a giant waste of my money.

I truly feel bad for anyone who doesn't succeed at ATI and therefore is failed from a class or a program. If you scored well on your school exams and couldn't pass ATI, then your school has a problem. If you weren't doing well in school to begin with, then unfortunately I think there is something lacking in your preparation and ability.

If students pass the core requirements for a nursing program, let them take NCLEX. If the administration is not confident their students can succeed, those students shouldn't have passed the nursing classes to begin with.

:yes: YES! EXACTLY! AMEN to that!!!!! :yes:

Edited by GracyMae
typo

This does not mean that your nursing school failed to teach you everything you need to know to be a nurse. It means that using critical thinking in the nursing process (assess, evaluate, analyze, and develop a plan of action) is THE most important thing you will learn, because that's what you will hang all your subsequent learning on.

I 100% agree with you on this. That is why ATI should only be used for learning purposes, not exit exam and pass standards. ATI tells you what the 5 processes names are, but that's about it. The only section that goes in depth at all is implementation, which is needed of course because that is the nurses duties. ATI books are extensive and carry a lot of information. ATI practice tests are fairly put together, but give barely any rationale. An example that would be an ATI rationale is, "Choice B is incorrect because choice C is more correct." :yawn: Seriously? That teaches me absolutely nothing. Then when you have gone over the practice test a few times and manually sifted through your book to find the slightest, real rationale, you get to the ATI test and there are loads of questions about delegation, medications (herbal remedies included), example situations that can vary far more than the question/background gives you. Nothing in that ATI book tells me what precautions I should use in jail.

I don't know if you have ever taken an ATI test, or maybe you teach and use ATI, but it is outlandish. I know they ask these questions because ATI is all about critically thinking, but you need some type of knowledge of the content for you to even have a clue as to what the answer is.

Example: You're a L&D nurse, have been for 37 years. All of a sudden, you place of work wants everyone to have a mandatory test for every nurse to make sure they are competent enough to continue working for them. If you fail, you are fired. So you go to the test thinking, I got this, I studied for all the L&D stuff anyone could imagine and I'm practically an expert after 37 years. WRONG! The test is filled with cardiac drugs, developmental milestones for children of all ages, and neuro diseases such as Dementia. It's just not right.

You have been around here far long than me and probably in the real world, and I respect you and your opinions as a more experienced nurse, which is why you understanding how schools use ATI at an attempt to raise their NCLEX pass rates is plain unfair. I understand you think a minimum is a minimum, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, which I support too, but ATI shouldn't have a minimum.

CaptainObvious

Has 3 years experience.

I'm sorry about your situation. My school had the exact same ATI policy and two people in our class didn't pass the Peds ATI twice and were failed for the course because of that. The bad thing was that they both had A's in the class. There wasn't really anything they could to - it was a school policy. They both appealed and were denied. The happy ending is that they retook the class next term and both passed, just graduated 6 months later.

KRAZY :confused: how you can have an A in the class [meaning you are learning what they are teaching you] and get kicked out cuz you don't pass a standardized test that's s'posed to be measuring how well the school is teaching you to pass NCLEX. STUPID!! :madface: :banghead:

CaptainObvious

Has 3 years experience.

I just don't get it. Why most colleges now are so into ATI? Why based your grade as pass or fail? Back in the days when ATI does not exist, students were able to pass it. There's only 1 good reason to use ATI, just a help- assessment, and to practice students how to get familiar with the types and style of questions NCLEX has. Sometimes I notice that some questions in ATI was inconsistent and I have to argue or ask my teacher about my rationale.

I know colleges gets their accreditation how how well their students pass the nclex. But what I think is important is how they teach their students. How the students will remember how good the knowledge they learned from that school, not all how to be strategically smart about how to take ATI style questions.

Agreed! :up:

CaptainObvious

Has 3 years experience.

ATI's pretests in many cases are full of incorrect and outdated information. Their post-graduation 3 day NCLEX review is a dog & pony show. I relied solely on that review and the material provided to take my NCLEX and I failed. ATI is a tool used by schools to maintain their accreditation and nothing more. ATI is about making money and I have even had a professor of mine admit to me that she was fairly sure that nurses were not making up the content on the ATI tests. I have taken 100's of snapshots of ATI questions with snipping tool (found in windows 7) and shared them with nurses who flat out say they are wrong! For instance, ATI believes that nurses are the ones who ensure a patient understands a surgical procedure they have upcoming when in fact that is the physicians responsibility. ATI also does not know the difference between side effects and adverse side effects. ATI believes that nurses are responsible for helping victims of physical abuse develop escape plans the next time they are abused. Of course, ALL of these are WRONG. All their NCLEX review did for me was have me study materials I wasn't even tested on when I took my NCLEX. ATI is a complete waste of time and effort. I graduated an accredited university with a Bachelors in Nursing with a 3.25gpa and failed the NCLEX because I relied on ATI to provide a quality review and used their materials to study. What I got turned out to be a bad joke and now a horrible situation. There's a reason ATI doesn't want anyone copying their questions on tests. There's a reason ATI reps won't speak directly to students. There's a reason you can never get a nurse on the line to speak to at ATI. They are trying to cover up the fact that they are in the business of making money, not educating students.

WOW! That's pretty bad, dude!!

I cannot believe this .... well, I CAN really, but this is just wrong!! :devil:

CaptainObvious

Has 3 years experience.

I disagree. I know many people who went to schools that required ATI testing - they passed the cumulative ATI exam at the end, which supposedly proved they had a 90-something % chance of passing NCLEX, but they did not pass the NCLEX. I also know people who have failed ATIs and passed NCLEX. ATI is not as good of a determiner of passing NCLEX as some might think.

-----------------------------------

Sparkleshine1210 - I totally feel your pain!!

The kicker is that students have to study for each semester's ATI test on their own time - it is not part of the curriculum. They have a book to study for the class and they have a separate book to study ON THEIR OWN for the ATI test. I think it makes no sense that you can pass all of your classes (i.e.- show you have learned whatever the school was trying to teach you) and then not get to get your diploma because you failed the ATI test that you had to try to study for on your own time ... when you did not have any extra time. If the school really feels that passing ATI = passing NCLEX, then they need to start teaching the same stuff (or same level of stuff) that is in the ATI books.

In other words, if schools are going to link ATI grades to being able to pass classes and continue on each semester and to being able to graduate, then they need to start teaching from the ATI books! If failing an ATI means that you have to fail the class you're taking in the same semester (even though you actually passed every test and assignment in the class), then apparently, the school considers ATI information to be more important than the stuff they are teaching in the class. If the ATI material is more important, then schools should teach the student FROM THE ATI BOOKS! That way, they would learn the apparently "important" stuff AND they would pass their ATIs ... which by the school's logic would mean that they would pass NCLEX ... which would also be good for the school's continued accreditation and funding.

Makes sense to me!

Ideally, the ATI test for each semester is supposed to go with the material in the class that is being taught that same semester, but that was never the case in our school. The stuff we got in class was like elementary school and the stuff we needed to know for ATI was like graduate school. So, the classes did not really prepare you for the ATI tests - so it never made any sense to any of us as to why when someone failed the ATI test, their punishment was to go back and retake the class (even when they had already passed everything in the class). That makes no sense. Why would failing an ATI mean you need to go back and waste a semester (time and money) taking a class that is not going to prepare you for or help you with taking the ATI test again??? This system is severely flawed!

I'm not sure if you are making a grade appeal or an appeal to change policy, but good luck, Sparkleshine1210!! If you haven't already, maybe you could make some of the arguments I have pointed out, here.

[please pardon any typos I've missed - it's late and I'm tired and this topic hit such familiar nerve with me that I just started typing feverishly in response]

I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID!! :up: :up:

CaptainObvious

Has 3 years experience.

:no: Your comment comes across as being condescending and snarky and not really constructive, well-meaning, or helpful at all. Just because a nursing school decides on a certain way of doing things does not make it right and does not even make it make sense - AND ... has nothing to do with how the "world of adults works." :arghh:

The fact of the matter is that it is a seriously flawed system when these schools link ATI-passing to class-passing (and graduation) when the information/material to learn in each are not even remotely in the same realm (class = elementary school material, but ATI = graduate school material) ... and also when the school requires the student to learn ATI on their own time and does not teach ATI in the class. If someone passes all tests and assignments in a class, then they should be allowed to move forward and not be systematically failed out of the class because of ATI and the school's accreditation issues. ATI relevance should be separate from the class relevance IF it is not going to be taught as part of the class. ATI was worth 10% of the total points in our classes too, but they were only extra points. So, if you passed ATI, you got extra points, but if you failed ATI, you did not lose those points from your grade. So, people could end up with an A in the class, but if they did not reach a level 2.5 on ATI, then they were failed out of the class, even though they actually made an A in the class. If passing ATI = passing the class (ultimately), then teach the class from the more intense ATI books!!!!!! :banghead:

AND ... If Pass ATI = Pass NCLEX (in some schools' eyes) = Even better! Problem solved :up:

My point is that failing ATI should mean doing something else besides having to go back and retake a class that: A) you've already aced; and B) is not going to help you pass the ATI when you have to take it again. If passing ATI tests is so important to the schools, then they should take some responsibility in teaching the ATI to the students and not leave them out their hanging on their own time trying to study the ATI books on their own time, in between all of their other classes and trying to learn and interpret it all on their own. :drowning:

YES, IT IS VERY FLAWED AND IN NEED OF CHANGE!! NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT!

My little sister had an awful time with that ATI mess. It almost ruined her. And she was a 4.0 student! That's just evil :devil:

CaptainObvious

Has 3 years experience.

This is why some boards of nursing have taken action, like this from NJ BoN that was made effective this past fall:

http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/nursing/DeanNDirectorLtr.pdf

Schools of nursing in NJ cannot use a commercially prepared exit exam (whether HESI, ATI or other exam) as an artificial barrier to graduation or progression in the program.

That is awesome!! :cool:

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