ATI Appeal

CaptainObvious · Jan 7, 2013

I'm sorry about your situation. My school had the exact same ATI policy and two people in our class didn't pass the Peds ATI twice and were failed for the course because of that. The bad thing was that they both had A's in the class. There wasn't really anything they could to - it was a school policy. They both appealed and were denied. The happy ending is that they retook the class next term and both passed, just graduated 6 months later.

KRAZY :confused: how you can have an A in the class [meaning you are learning what they are teaching you] and get kicked out cuz you don't pass a standardized test that's s'posed to be measuring how well the school is teaching you to pass NCLEX. STUPID!! :madface: :banghead:

CaptainObvious · Jan 7, 2013

I just don't get it. Why most colleges now are so into ATI? Why based your grade as pass or fail? Back in the days when ATI does not exist, students were able to pass it. There's only 1 good reason to use ATI, just a help- assessment, and to practice students how to get familiar with the types and style of questions NCLEX has. Sometimes I notice that some questions in ATI was inconsistent and I have to argue or ask my teacher about my rationale.
I know colleges gets their accreditation how how well their students pass the nclex. But what I think is important is how they teach their students. How the students will remember how good the knowledge they learned from that school, not all how to be strategically smart about how to take ATI style questions.

Agreed! :up:

CaptainObvious · Jan 7, 2013

ATI's pretests in many cases are full of incorrect and outdated information. Their post-graduation 3 day NCLEX review is a dog & pony show. I relied solely on that review and the material provided to take my NCLEX and I failed. ATI is a tool used by schools to maintain their accreditation and nothing more. ATI is about making money and I have even had a professor of mine admit to me that she was fairly sure that nurses were not making up the content on the ATI tests. I have taken 100's of snapshots of ATI questions with snipping tool (found in windows 7) and shared them with nurses who flat out say they are wrong! For instance, ATI believes that nurses are the ones who ensure a patient understands a surgical procedure they have upcoming when in fact that is the physicians responsibility. ATI also does not know the difference between side effects and adverse side effects. ATI believes that nurses are responsible for helping victims of physical abuse develop escape plans the next time they are abused. Of course, ALL of these are WRONG. All their NCLEX review did for me was have me study materials I wasn't even tested on when I took my NCLEX. ATI is a complete waste of time and effort. I graduated an accredited university with a Bachelors in Nursing with a 3.25gpa and failed the NCLEX because I relied on ATI to provide a quality review and used their materials to study. What I got turned out to be a bad joke and now a horrible situation. There's a reason ATI doesn't want anyone copying their questions on tests. There's a reason ATI reps won't speak directly to students. There's a reason you can never get a nurse on the line to speak to at ATI. They are trying to cover up the fact that they are in the business of making money, not educating students.

WOW! That's pretty bad, dude!!

I cannot believe this .... well, I CAN really, but this is just wrong!! :devil:

CaptainObvious · Jan 7, 2013

I disagree. I know many people who went to schools that required ATI testing - they passed the cumulative ATI exam at the end, which supposedly proved they had a 90-something % chance of passing NCLEX, but they did not pass the NCLEX. I also know people who have failed ATIs and passed NCLEX. ATI is not as good of a determiner of passing NCLEX as some might think.
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Sparkleshine1210 - I totally feel your pain!!
The kicker is that students have to study for each semester's ATI test on their own time - it is not part of the curriculum. They have a book to study for the class and they have a separate book to study ON THEIR OWN for the ATI test. I think it makes no sense that you can pass all of your classes (i.e.- show you have learned whatever the school was trying to teach you) and then not get to get your diploma because you failed the ATI test that you had to try to study for on your own time ... when you did not have any extra time. If the school really feels that passing ATI = passing NCLEX, then they need to start teaching the same stuff (or same level of stuff) that is in the ATI books.
In other words, if schools are going to link ATI grades to being able to pass classes and continue on each semester and to being able to graduate, then they need to start teaching from the ATI books! If failing an ATI means that you have to fail the class you're taking in the same semester (even though you actually passed every test and assignment in the class), then apparently, the school considers ATI information to be more important than the stuff they are teaching in the class. If the ATI material is more important, then schools should teach the student FROM THE ATI BOOKS! That way, they would learn the apparently "important" stuff AND they would pass their ATIs ... which by the school's logic would mean that they would pass NCLEX ... which would also be good for the school's continued accreditation and funding.
Makes sense to me!
Ideally, the ATI test for each semester is supposed to go with the material in the class that is being taught that same semester, but that was never the case in our school. The stuff we got in class was like elementary school and the stuff we needed to know for ATI was like graduate school. So, the classes did not really prepare you for the ATI tests - so it never made any sense to any of us as to why when someone failed the ATI test, their punishment was to go back and retake the class (even when they had already passed everything in the class). That makes no sense. Why would failing an ATI mean you need to go back and waste a semester (time and money) taking a class that is not going to prepare you for or help you with taking the ATI test again??? This system is severely flawed!
I'm not sure if you are making a grade appeal or an appeal to change policy, but good luck, Sparkleshine1210!! If you haven't already, maybe you could make some of the arguments I have pointed out, here.
[please pardon any typos I've missed - it's late and I'm tired and this topic hit such familiar nerve with me that I just started typing feverishly in response]

I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID!! :up: :up:

CaptainObvious · Jan 7, 2013

Your comment comes across as being condescending and snarky and not really constructive, well-meaning, or helpful at all. Just because a nursing school decides on a certain way of doing things does not make it right and does not even make it make sense - AND ... has nothing to do with how the "world of adults works."
The fact of the matter is that it is a seriously flawed system when these schools link ATI-passing to class-passing (and graduation) when the information/material to learn in each are not even remotely in the same realm (class = elementary school material, but ATI = graduate school material) ... and also when the school requires the student to learn ATI on their own time and does not teach ATI in the class. If someone passes all tests and assignments in a class, then they should be allowed to move forward and not be systematically failed out of the class because of ATI and the school's accreditation issues. ATI relevance should be separate from the class relevance IF it is not going to be taught as part of the class. ATI was worth 10% of the total points in our classes too, but they were only extra points. So, if you passed ATI, you got extra points, but if you failed ATI, you did not lose those points from your grade. So, people could end up with an A in the class, but if they did not reach a level 2.5 on ATI, then they were failed out of the class, even though they actually made an A in the class. If passing ATI = passing the class (ultimately), then teach the class from the more intense ATI books!!!!!!
AND ... If Pass ATI = Pass NCLEX (in some schools' eyes) = Even better! Problem solved
My point is that failing ATI should mean doing something else besides having to go back and retake a class that: A) you've already aced; and B) is not going to help you pass the ATI when you have to take it again. If passing ATI tests is so important to the schools, then they should take some responsibility in teaching the ATI to the students and not leave them out their hanging on their own time trying to study the ATI books on their own time, in between all of their other classes and trying to learn and interpret it all on their own.

YES, IT IS VERY FLAWED AND IN NEED OF CHANGE!! NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT!

My little sister had an awful time with that ATI mess. It almost ruined her. And she was a 4.0 student! That's just evil :devil:

CaptainObvious · Jan 7, 2013

This is why some boards of nursing have taken action, like this from NJ BoN that was made effective this past fall:
http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/nursing/DeanNDirectorLtr.pdf
Schools of nursing in NJ cannot use a commercially prepared exit exam (whether HESI, ATI or other exam) as an artificial barrier to graduation or progression in the program.

That is awesome!! :cool:

CaptainObvious · Jan 7, 2013

Yes. You are correct - your comment doesn't HAVE to be constructive or helpful or anything - it can be just as condescending and judgmental and as stating-the-obvious and as unhelpful as you want it to be.
However, just because something is a policy somewhere doesn't make it a good policy - doesn't make it something that people should just sit back and blindly accept because, "Oh well! That is the way the world is!" The fact of the matter is, Sparkleshine1210 wants to file an appeal. Like many of the students at my school, she probably did not understand how utterly nonsensical the ATI policy was until she got on the wrong side of it. So, she wants to try to make a change because she sees an injustice happening. And she apparently is not being unreasonable because apparently it IS an injustice, or else New Jersey Board of Nursing would not have done what they did when they ruled that ATI and other exit exams could no longer be used as artificial bars against graduation and sitting for the NCLEX. Obviously, the New Jersey students took a stand and look what it got them - CHANGE. Yes, the world is the way it is, but when people take a chance and go out on a limb to try to get unreasonable policies or anything else changed, that should not be shot down by people who just want to put their head in the sand or lay down and let bad policies steamroll over them because they've given up and succumbed to the belief that you're not supposed to try to change anything because somewhere along the line, they agreed to be governed by something that doesn't make any sense or because "that's just life." No, that's just sad
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson
WOW!! BRAVO! :up: VERY WELL-SAID. You make Excellent Points!!
You sure you want to go to nursing school and not LAW School, GracyMae??
Okay - sorry I'm commenting so much, but I just couldn't help myself. After my sister's ATI ordeal, I still cannot believe schools use this crap to weed out people, as opposed to helping them.

CaptainObvious · Jan 7, 2013

However, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't actively seek out learning outside of your classroom and clinicals. Believe me, if you don't get the life-long intellectual curiosity, love of learning habit while you are in school you will begin to fall behind the day you graduate. I believe somebody posted how unfair it was that the exam tested material you didn't have in lecture and you had to study on your own. Bingo. Guess what? Your jobs will test you, daily, on things you didn't learn in school, and you will have to study on your own to pass as a nurse (little pun there).

This does not mean that your nursing school failed to teach you everything you need to know to be a nurse. It means that using critical thinking in the nursing process (assess, evaluate, analyze, and develop a plan of action) is THE most important thing you will learn, because that's what you will hang all your subsequent learning on.

I agree with you greentea, but I don't think that's really what this convo is about.

CaptainObvious · Jan 7, 2013

Having a nursing program accredited by the state BON means that they are required to have a certain percentage of their graduates pass the NCLEX on the first try. If their pass rate is too low, they can lose their accreditation.
If you can't pass the ATI, your chances of passing the NCLEX are low, so it's within the school's best interest to not pass students who can't pass the ATI. You may do great on your classwork and you may be great in clinicals, but if you can't pass the NCLEX, you can't become a nurse. Period. The school's not being unfair -- they're being realistic, and they're protecting their program so that future students have a chance to become a nurse.
If the ATI is your only problem, I recommend that you buy a gazillion NCLEX-prep books and take courses from the various companies that offer NCLEX reviews so you can learn how to do better on that type of testing.

I disagree with ur stmt that chances of passing nclex are low if you don't reach the 3 level on the ati (or whatever the level is now). Pardon my french, but that's horse manure. Suuuuuurrrrr, ATI would like you to believe they can correctly predict the people who are gonna pass nclex, but they can't really. :cautious:

GracyMae · Jan 7, 2013

I disagree with ur stmt that chances of passing nclex are low if you don't reach the 3 level on the ati (or whatever the level is now). Pardon my french, but that's horse manure. Suuuuuurrrrr, ATI would like you to believe they can correctly predict the people who are gonna pass nclex, but they can't really.

Yep. A friend of mine didn't make the required score on her ATI tests, got kicked out and had to go through all this red tape and finally ended up in a bridge program that did not use ATI and when she finally got to take the NCLEX, she aced it - 75 questions. ATI is not reliable. :no:

brillohead, ADN, RN · Jan 7, 2013

I disagree with ur stmt that chances of passing nclex are low if you don't reach the 3 level on the ati (or whatever the level is now). Pardon my french, but that's horse manure. Suuuuuurrrrr, ATI would like you to believe they can correctly predict the people who are gonna pass nclex, but they can't really.

That's okay, I disagree with your unwillingness (inability?) to type out actual words and sentences. :rolleyes:

Many places consider level 2 AND level 3 to be "passing" the ATI. I'm curious how many people with a level 1 score pass the NCLEX on the first try. Actual hard evidence numbers, not pulled-out-of-rectal orifice anecdotal crap. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Stephalump · Jan 7, 2013

Yep. A friend of mine didn't make the required score on her ATI tests, got kicked out and had to go through all this red tape and finally ended up in a bridge program that did not use ATI and when she finally got to take the NCLEX, she aced it - 75 questions. ATI is not reliable.

She failed out of school then went through school again and then passed the NCELX? It doesn't seem like her newfound success could be due to doing at least some of her coursework TWICE?