Associate's degree v. Bachelor's degree starting wages.

PMFB-RN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

even non-magnet hospitals usually require leadership positions to have higher education, but it's been my understanding that the "magnet" status does have hospitals seeking bsn nurses...not just managers? it could be a myth, i guess....

*** apperently you have never looked at magnet requirments. i served on the magnet comittee for two different hospitals during their "journy to magnet" and have seen the requirments a number of times. it is a myth that obtaining magnet certification requires a certain percentage of bsn educated staff rns.

what is true is that magnet hospitals are more likely to requires a bsn for new hires. both magnet and bsn only are indicators of the mentaliety of hospital administration. in other words that same kind of people who desire magnet are the same type of people who would desire to hire bsns only.

there is a growing body of evidence that shows that bsn graduates bring unique skills to their work as nursing clinicians and play an important role in the delivery of safe patient care.

*** thanks for posting. i was wondering if maybe you had seen some new studies. i guess not.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

There are many other professions where there exists a noticeable difference between the wages of those with an Associate Degree and a Bachelor's Degree This difference ranges from $2000 to $4000 per year. Nursing, however, is not one of those professions. Even the Bureau of Labor Statistics fails to make a distinction between ADN nurses and BSN nurses who are providing bedside care as regards wages.
With BSN nurses bring additional skill sets to bedside care and the costs of of securing a bachelor's degree continue to rise, the question of how we are to recoup the investments made in our futures if hospital administrations continue in their failure to compensate us. We made an investment not only in our futures, but also in the health and safety of our patients and their families. Is it unreasonable then to expect a fair compensation for that investment? We are advocates for our patients, their families and their communities. We must become advocates for ourselves so we may better serve them.
PayScale - People with Associates Degrees Salary, Average Salaries
PayScale - People with Bachelors Degrees Salary, Average Salaries
RN & BSN Salaries | eHow.com

Oh....goody, we get to discuss this subject again. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry.........I know I shouldn't feel this way .....

It's just that this is the deadest horse that has ever been beaten.

This subject is as old as nursing itself. This was being debated and talked about when I graduated 34 years ago. As long as their are multiple entry levels of education this debate will continue. New grads, such as yourself, are stunned to find out that after all the hype about how much better your education is and how much better BSN grads are over those "Other Grads" and spending twice the amount of money for your education and having twice the debt makes you the "Better nurse"........in the short term, is hype.

"You" (the collective you) graduate.....Only to be disappointed, shocked, betrayed to find out the opposite is true. A new Grad, is a New grad, Is a new grad....and IF any differential is paid it only adds up to about $1000 a year...in the best case scenario. In this economic environment that is probably not even true.

Today it means you probably have the "edge" to get that job over the ADN in some areas of the country......But the fact remains is the you are a new grad and require as much training to function at the bedside as any other new grad and actually may have less bedside/lab experience that "other" programs as your education has more "acedemic" focuses. The fact remains..... you all need extensive orientation and training to perform the job independently. "You" are all required to pass the same licensing exam and are considered equal in the eyes of the law and your practice.

Out of curiosity .....And I mean this with the best spirit and kindness......What skills exactly, does a BSN grad bring to the bedside the first year on the job that is superior to what the ADN grad brings to the bedside during that same first year that is superior enough to justify more money?

As a manager...both new grads require the same mentoring and education as to how to be a bedside nurse and function independently. One spent more for their education but that doesn't, necessarily, make them the superior nurse.

I know that it is frustrating and upsetting.........and I am sorry:hug:. This has been an ongoing debate for so many years. :bugeyes: Many of "us" have grown bored with hearing it again and again because the schools still perpetuate this myth :banghead: leaving new grads frustrated and angry.

Your chances, however, of advancement and promotion are far superior and long term earning potential are far greater than the ADN grad in today's economy.

Congrats on graduating, passing your boards and I wish you the best on your nursing journey!!!:loveya:

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

There is a growing body of evidence that shows that BSN graduates bring unique skills to their work as nursing clinicians and play an important role in the delivery of safe patient care.
In a January 2011 article published in the Journal of Nursing Scholarship, Drs. Deborah Kendall-Gallagher, Linda Aiken, and colleagues released the findings of an extensive study of the impact nurse specialty certification has on lowering patient mortality and failure to rescue rates in hospital settings. The researchers found that certification was associated with better patient outcomes, but only when care was provided by nurses with baccalaureate level education. The authors concluded that “no effect of specialization was seen in the absence of baccalaureate education.”
In an article published in Health Services Research in August 2008 that examined the effect of nursing practice environments on outcomes of hospitalized cancer patients undergoing surgery, Dr. Christopher Friese and colleagues found that nursing education level was significantly associated with patient outcomes. Nurses prepared at the baccalaureate-level were linked with lower mortality and failure-to-rescue rates. The authors conclude that “moving to a nurse workforce in which a higher proportion of staff nurses have at least a baccalaureate-level education would result in substantially fewer adverse outcomes for patients.”
In a study released in the May 2008 issue of the Journal of Nursing Administration, Dr. Linda Aiken and her colleagues confirmed the findings from her landmark 2003 study (see below) which show a strong link between RN education level and patient outcomes. Titled “Effects of Hospital Care Environment on Patient Mortality and Nurse Outcomes,” these leading nurse researchers found that every 10% increase in the proportion of BSN nurses on the hospital staff was associated with a 4% decrease in the risk of death.
In the January 2007 Journal of Advanced Nursing, a study on the “Impact of Hospital Nursing Care on 30-day Mortality for Acute Medical Patients” found that BSN-prepared nurses have a positive impact on lowering mortality rates. Led by Dr. Ann E. Tourangeau, researchers from the University of Toronto and the Institute for Clinical Evaluative Sciences in Ontario studied 46,993 patients admitted to the hospital with heart attacks, strokes, pneumonia and blood poisoning. The authors found that: "Hospitals with higher proportions of baccalaureate-prepared nurses tended to have lower 30-day mortality rates. Our findings indicated that a 10% increase in the proportion of baccalaureate prepared nurses was associated with 9 fewer deaths for every 1,000 discharged patients."
In a study published in the March/April 2005 issue of Nursing Research, Dr. Carole Estabrooks and her colleagues at the University of Alberta found that baccalaureate prepared nurses have a positive impact on mortality rates following an examination of more than 18,000 patient outcomes at 49 Canadian hospitals. This study, titled The Impact of Hospital Nursing Characteristics on 30-Day Mortality, confirms the findings from Dr. Linda Aiken’s landmark study in September 2003.
In a study published in the September 24, 2003 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), Dr. Linda Aiken and her colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania identified a clear link between higher levels of nursing education and better patient outcomes. This extensive study found that surgical patients have a "substantial survival advantage" if treated in hospitals with higher proportions of nurses educated at the baccalaureate or higher degree level. In hospitals, a 10 percent increase in the proportion of nurses holding BSN degrees decreased the risk of patient death and failure to rescue by 5 percent. The study authors further recommend that public financing of nursing education should aim at shaping a workforce best prepared to meet the needs of the population. They also call for renewed support and incentives from nurse employers to encourage registered nurses to pursue education at the baccalaureate and higher degree levels.
Evidence shows that nursing education level is a factor in patient safety and quality of care. As cited in the report When Care Becomes a Burden released by the Milbank Memorial Fund in 2001, two separate studies conducted in 1996 – one by the state of New York and one by the state of Texas – clearly show that significantly higher levels of medication errors and procedural violations are committed by nurses prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels as compared with the baccalaureate level. These findings are consistent with findings published in the July/August 2002 issue of Nurse Educator magazine that references studies conducted in Arizona, Colorado, Louisiana, Ohio and Tennessee that also found that nurses prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels make the majority of practice-related violations.
Chief nurse officers (CNO) in university hospitals prefer to hire nurses who have baccalaureate degrees, and nurse administrators recognize distinct differences in competencies based on education. In a 2001 survey published in the Journal of Nursing Administration, 72% of these directors identified differences in practice between BSN-prepared nurses and those who have an associate degree or hospital diploma, citing stronger critical thinking and leadership skills.
Studies have also found that nurses prepared at the baccalaureate level have stronger communication and problem solving skills (Johnson, 1988) and a higher proficiency in their ability to make nursing diagnoses and evaluate nursing interventions (Giger & Davidhizar, 1990).
Research shows that RNs prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels develop stronger professional-level skills after completing a BSN program. In a study of RN-to-BSN graduates from 1995 to 1998 (Phillips, et al., 2002), these students demonstrated higher competency in nursing practice, communication, leadership, professional integration, and research/evaluation.
Data show that health care facilities with higher percentages of BSN nurses enjoy better patient outcomes and significantly lower mortality rates. Magnet hospitals are model patient care facilities that typically employ a higher proportion of baccalaureate prepared nurses, 59% BSN as compared to 34% BSN at other hospitals. In several research studies, Marlene Kramer, Linda Aiken and others have found a strong relationship between organizational characteristics and patient outcomes.
The fact that passing rates for the NCLEX-RN©, the national licensing exam for RNs, are essentially the same for all three types of graduates is not proof that there are no differences among graduates. The NCLEX-RN© is a multiple-choice test that measures the minimum technical competency for safe entry into basic nursing practice. Passing rates should be high across all programs preparing new nurses. This exam does not test for differences between graduates of different entry-level programs. The NCLEX-RN© is only one indicator of competency, and it does not measure performance over time or test for all of the knowledge and skills developed through a BSN program.

minnymi.....I've read this before......what is your source?

PMFB-RN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

But the fact remains is the you are a new grad and require as much training to function at the bedside as any other new grad and actually may have less bedside/lab experience that "other" programs as your education has more "acedemic" focuses.

*** My hospital has determined that it actually cost MORE to train new BSN grads over ADN. In addition the hospital gets a much, much better return on it's considerable investment from ADNs.

This is why new grad BSNs are not hired for the Critical Care Nurse Residency program for the SICU.

BaltimoreHon, BSN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

I am a new graduate ADN nurse at a magnet hospital. My BSN collegues do not start at a higher rate of pay than I do. The difference lies in advancement opportunities. Without a BSN there comes a point where I can no longer climb the clinical nurse ladder. I estimate this will be about three years down the road. Ample time for me to get a bSN.

mmc51264, BSN, MSN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

What I find interesting is that most of the ADN students have to do 2 years of pre-reqs while they are waiting to get into a Nursing program and end up with 2 Associates degrees. I happened to have a BS in Biology which let me avoid the wait. I just graduated from an ADN program and feel that I have the skills to be a good nurse, but I realize that I can only go so far and will be starting a BSN in Jan. I am curious to what the difference in curriculum will be.

MattNurse, MSN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

I am orienting a new BSN level nurse and she didn't know how to hang an IV piggyback or start an IV when she came to me, basic skills (as I would expect from any new nurse).

On my unit ADN's and diploma nurses teach skills to BSN RN's all the time (and vice versa), wouldn't make sense to have a pay difference.

tntrn, ASN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

A new nurse is a new nurse. And no nurses know it all right of school. It is a shame that people (including educators and hospitals and schools) give the impression that a BSN nursen will be a better nurse. I have 36 years in nursing and in most, if not all cases, it has never been obvious to me who is BSN and who is not, by the kind of nurse they are. If a BSN nurse has a job requirement that has more or different responsibilities, by all means pay accordingly. But if they are doing the same job I do, then no.

chuckster, ADN, BSN, RN, EMT-B · Jun 18, 2012

*** My hospital has determined that it actually cost MORE to train new BSN grads over ADN. In addition the hospital gets a much, much better return on it's considerable investment from ADNs.
This is why new grad BSNs are not hired for the Critical Care Nurse Residency program for the SICU.

Interesting. Yet in my area, the overwhelming majority of advertisements for new grad nursing positions state "BSN required", where not so long ago they were either silent about degree requirements or at most stated "BSN preferred". In the very recent past, most of the graduates from the nursing program at my local CC - a long established and well-regarded program - went to hospitals with a relatively small number going to LTC facilities. Since about 2009 however, the reverse seems to be true. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out but for now, the BSN seems to be the new minimum requirement for RN hospital jobs.

Jennie.K · Jun 18, 2012

Wow, talk about pouncing on the OP for a question. I have been wondering what the difference was as well. I do not think there should be a difference in pay. However, I've been wondering why one should go after a BSN when an ADN does the same thing. This has been an ongoing struggle for me. I am planning on going to a BSN program after I am done with my prereqs. Basically, for me, it will mean an extra semester and $30,000... Still trying to decide if it is worth it

llg, PhD, RN · Jun 18, 2012

*** My hospital has determined that it actually cost MORE to train new BSN grads over ADN. In addition the hospital gets a much, much better return on it's considerable investment from ADNs.
This is why new grad BSNs are not hired for the Critical Care Nurse Residency program for the SICU.

That really is not true nationwide. It may though, be true in your particular community because you have an exceptionally strong ADN program and an exceptionally weak BSN one in the area. If you look nationwide, the BSN grads are much more likely to be hired into most new-grad residency programs of all types.

DoGoodThenGo · Jun 18, 2012

Interesting. Yet in my area, the overwhelming majority of advertisements for new grad nursing positions state "BSN required", where not so long ago they were either silent about degree requirements or at most stated "BSN preferred". In the very recent past, most of the graduates from the nursing program at my local CC - a long established and well-regarded program - went to hospitals with a relatively small number going to LTC facilities. Since about 2009 however, the reverse seems to be true. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out but for now, the BSN seems to be the new minimum requirement for RN hospital jobs.

I'm waiting for a new grad ADN nurse somewhere to float a trial court case over her (or his) being denied a postion to a BSN nurse.

To my knowledge there isn't a nurse practice act in the United States that breaks down duties by degree or diploma awarded. While one can understand the *why* behind places moving to BSN staffing am wondering how much of it is based upon sound science or is it just another screening tool.