Associate's degree v. Bachelor's degree starting wages.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Jun 17, 2012

And your purpose in posting this (which has been posted in hundreds of forms, literally thousands of times on this website) is?

Out of curiosity, what are you seeking to present or what response do you wish to obtain, that is not already easily available already?

dzadzey, MSN, RN · Jun 17, 2012

If you need to ask, you don't understand.

sauconyrunner · Jun 17, 2012

Gotta agree with Lady Carol. Plus, I as a BSN Nurse, never felt like I brought additional skill sets to the bedside with a few extra classes in community nursing, research and the like.

ddunnrn · Jun 18, 2012

As a Diploma nurse, I was taught that nurses, like all other workers, are paid for the job they do. Having extra letters in your title doesn't change that. Should I have been getting paid more because I have a BS in chemistry? That, too, brings extra knowledge, and from personal experience, a more rigorous attitude about science and scientific theories.

KelRN215, BSN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

"With BSN nurses bring additional skill sets to bedside care..."

I am a BSN prepared nurse and I can't think of any skills that I brought to the bedside that my associates/diploma prepared colleagues didn't have. Skills in nursing come largely from experience. The most experienced RN I worked with while an acute-care nurse was a diploma-prepared nurse from 40ish years ago who had worked on the same floor for over 25 years. It goes without saying that her skills were far superior to mine, even though I had a "higher" degree.

JZ_RN · Jun 18, 2012

I am an ADN nurse- took the same test as BSN nurses. I'm doing my BSN for me. All it is is busywork and stuff about management and diversity and other non-essential skills anyways. Get off your high horse.

minnymi · Jun 18, 2012

the OP has a point. every other profession has a distinction in pay directly related to education. why not nursing?

afterall, i'm sure that hospitals with "magnet" status are reaping some benefits, and part of their magnet status is based on having a certain number of BSNs employed, no?

i haven't done much research on the issue, but i have read some journals that state patient outcomes are better based on the nurse's education level.

there's never any issue with a CNA making less than a LPN, or a LPN making less than a RN...but it's taboo to suggest that a BSN/RN should get compensated more. afterall, isn't education the distinction between practically every payscale in healthcare, if not all professions?

PMFB-RN, RN · Jun 18, 2012

the op has a point. every other profession has a distinction in pay directly related to education. why not nursing?

*** in other professions there is some difference between the different levels of preperation. usually those with a backlors degree have skills, training or lisensure to do something those with associates degrees do not. that is not the case with rns. the bsn prepared rn does nothing to bring more income into the hospital that an rn with an adn does or doesn't. there is no job an rn with a bsn can be assinged that can not also be assinged to an rn with an adn.

afterall, i'm sure that hospitals with "magnet" status are reaping some benefits, and part of their magnet status is based on having a certain number of bsns employed, no?

*** no., of course not. there is no requirement for a certain percentage, or any number of staff rns to have bsns for magnet. it is simply not required. magnet does require those in nurse leadership positions to have degrees, but there is no such requirment for staff rns and never has been. where do these myths come from?

i haven't done much research on the issue, but i have read some journals that state patient outcomes are better based on the nurse's education level.

*** what journals? what issue?

there's never any issue with a cna making less than a lpn, or a lpn making less than a rn...but it's taboo to suggest that a bsn/rn should get compensated more. afterall, isn't education the distinction between practically every payscale in healthcare, if not all professions?

*** yes but there are huge scope of practice difference between cnas, lpns, & rns. absolutly zero scope of practice difference between an rn with an adn and an rn with a bsn. what is the difference between an rn with an adn and an rn with a bsn? 6-18 months of part time online classes.

the op sounds envious to me.

minnymi · Jun 18, 2012

the op has a point. every other profession has a distinction in pay directly related to education. why not nursing?
*** in other professions there is some difference between the different levels of preperation. usually those with a backlors degree have skills, training or lisensure to do something those with associates degrees do not. that is not the case with rns. the bsn prepared rn does nothing to bring more income into the hospital that an rn with an adn does or doesn't. there is no job an rn with a bsn can be assinged that can not also be assinged to an rn with an adn.
afterall, i'm sure that hospitals with "magnet" status are reaping some benefits, and part of their magnet status is based on having a certain number of bsns employed, no?
*** no., of course not. there is no requirement for a certain percentage, or any number of staff rns to have bsns for magnet. it is simply not required. magnet does require those in nurse leadership positions to have degrees, but there is no such requirment for staff rns and never has been. where do these myths come from?
i haven't done much research on the issue, but i have read some journals that state patient outcomes are better based on the nurse's education level.
*** what journals? what issue?
there's never any issue with a cna making less than a lpn, or a lpn making less than a rn...but it's taboo to suggest that a bsn/rn should get compensated more. afterall, isn't education the distinction between practically every payscale in healthcare, if not all professions?
*** yes but there are huge scope of practice difference between cnas, lpns, & rns. absolutly zero scope of practice difference between an rn with an adn and an rn with a bsn. what is the difference between an rn with an adn and an rn with a bsn? 6-18 months of part time online classes.
the op sounds envious to me.

even non-magnet hospitals usually require leadership positions to have higher education, but it's been my understanding that the "magnet" status does have hospitals seeking bsn nurses...not just managers? it could be a myth, i guess....

i said i hadn't done much research (never had a reason to) but i've heard/read that patient outcomes are better r/t education level. however, a quick google search brought up this as the first hit:

there is a growing body of evidence that shows that bsn graduates bring unique skills to their work as nursing clinicians and play an important role in the delivery of safe patient care.

in a january 2011 article published in the journal of nursing scholarship, drs. deborah kendall-gallagher, linda aiken, and colleagues released the findings of an extensive study of the impact nurse specialty certification has on lowering patient mortality and failure to rescue rates in hospital settings. the researchers found that certification was associated with better patient outcomes, but only when care was provided by nurses with baccalaureate level education. the authors concluded that “no effect of specialization was seen in the absence of baccalaureate education.”
in an article published in health services research in august 2008 that examined the effect of nursing practice environments on outcomes of hospitalized cancer patients undergoing surgery, dr. christopher friese and colleagues found that nursing education level was significantly associated with patient outcomes. nurses prepared at the baccalaureate-level were linked with lower mortality and failure-to-rescue rates. the authors conclude that “moving to a nurse workforce in which a higher proportion of staff nurses have at least a baccalaureate-level education would result in substantially fewer adverse outcomes for patients.”
in a study released in the may 2008 issue of the journal of nursing administration, dr. linda aiken and her colleagues confirmed the findings from her landmark 2003 study (see below) which show a strong link between rn education level and patient outcomes. titled “effects of hospital care environment on patient mortality and nurse outcomes,” these leading nurse researchers found that every 10% increase in the proportion of bsn nurses on the hospital staff was associated with a 4% decrease in the risk of death.
in the january 2007 journal of advanced nursing, a study on the “impact of hospital nursing care on 30-day mortality for acute medical patients” found that bsn-prepared nurses have a positive impact on lowering mortality rates. led by dr. ann e. tourangeau, researchers from the university of toronto and the institute for clinical evaluative sciences in ontario studied 46,993 patients admitted to the hospital with heart attacks, strokes, pneumonia and blood poisoning. the authors found that: "hospitals with higher proportions of baccalaureate-prepared nurses tended to have lower 30-day mortality rates. our findings indicated that a 10% increase in the proportion of baccalaureate prepared nurses was associated with 9 fewer deaths for every 1,000 discharged patients."
in a study published in the march/april 2005 issue of nursing research, dr. carole estabrooks and her colleagues at the university of alberta found that baccalaureate prepared nurses have a positive impact on mortality rates following an examination of more than 18,000 patient outcomes at 49 canadian hospitals. this study, titled the impact of hospital nursing characteristics on 30-day mortality, confirms the findings from dr. linda aiken’s landmark study in september 2003.
in a study published in the september 24, 2003 issue of the journal of the american medical association (jama), dr. linda aiken and her colleagues at the university of pennsylvania identified a clear link between higher levels of nursing education and better patient outcomes. this extensive study found that surgical patients have a "substantial survival advantage" if treated in hospitals with higher proportions of nurses educated at the baccalaureate or higher degree level. in hospitals, a 10 percent increase in the proportion of nurses holding bsn degrees decreased the risk of patient death and failure to rescue by 5 percent. the study authors further recommend that public financing of nursing education should aim at shaping a workforce best prepared to meet the needs of the population. they also call for renewed support and incentives from nurse employers to encourage registered nurses to pursue education at the baccalaureate and higher degree levels.
evidence shows that nursing education level is a factor in patient safety and quality of care. as cited in the report when care becomes a burden released by the milbank memorial fund in 2001, two separate studies conducted in 1996 – one by the state of new york and one by the state of texas – clearly show that significantly higher levels of medication errors and procedural violations are committed by nurses prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels as compared with the baccalaureate level. these findings are consistent with findings published in the july/august 2002 issue of nurse educator magazine that references studies conducted in arizona, colorado, louisiana, ohio and tennessee that also found that nurses prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels make the majority of practice-related violations.
chief nurse officers (cno) in university hospitals prefer to hire nurses who have baccalaureate degrees, and nurse administrators recognize distinct differences in competencies based on education. in a 2001 survey published in the journal of nursing administration, 72% of these directors identified differences in practice between bsn-prepared nurses and those who have an associate degree or hospital diploma, citing stronger critical thinking and leadership skills.
studies have also found that nurses prepared at the baccalaureate level have stronger communication and problem solving skills (johnson, 1988) and a higher proficiency in their ability to make nursing diagnoses and evaluate nursing interventions (giger & davidhizar, 1990).
research shows that rns prepared at the associate degree and diploma levels develop stronger professional-level skills after completing a bsn program. in a study of rn-to-bsn graduates from 1995 to 1998 (phillips, et al., 2002), these students demonstrated higher competency in nursing practice, communication, leadership, professional integration, and research/evaluation.
data show that health care facilities with higher percentages of bsn nurses enjoy better patient outcomes and significantly lower mortality rates. magnet hospitals are model patient care facilities that typically employ a higher proportion of baccalaureate prepared nurses, 59% bsn as compared to 34% bsn at other hospitals. in several research studies, marlene kramer, linda aiken and others have found a strong relationship between organizational characteristics and patient outcomes.
the fact that passing rates for the nclex-rn©, the national licensing exam for rns, are essentially the same for all three types of graduates is not proof that there are no differences among graduates. the nclex-rn© is a multiple-choice test that measures the minimum technical competency for safe entry into basic nursing practice. passing rates should be high across all programs preparing new nurses. this exam does not test for differences between graduates of different entry-level programs. the nclex-rn© is only one indicator of competency, and it does not measure performance over time or test for all of the knowledge and skills developed through a bsn program.

minnymi · Jun 18, 2012

just came across this post from a member who seems to be a floor nurse. why would they want her to get a bsn if not in a leadership role?

jun 14 by kidrn911 jun 14 by kidrn911 a member since jun '05 - from 'the bottom of lake michigan'. kidrn911 has '12' year(s) of nursing experience and specializes in 'peds ed, peds stem cell transplant, peds'. posts: 191 likes: 19

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[color=#00ff00]i am a peds nurse with an adn. what type of action are you talking about? i can say with magnet status hospitals it is extremely hard for an adn to get a job. i have 12 years experience with 6 being in a pediatric level 1 trauma center. they don't care, they want me to get my bsn. i don't, i am tired of school, i have a family that i want to care for. nursing is not my life, but a job. i love what i do, but think my experience should account for something, instead of thrown in the trash. i get tired of magnet treating adn and diploma graduates like complete idiots. that would be the first thing i would check for at any hospital. second, make goals of what you want. do you just want to be a staff nurse? do you want to go into education or management? third, think of the future. is it financial feasible for you to go on to get your bsn now? if it is, i suggest you do it. there will come a day where it is mandated.

alfrnbsn1988 · Jun 18, 2012

If you decide to get a bachelors degree in nursing, you then work 10 years in a hospital then decide you wanna go back to school, your set. If you stop at just a associate level, work ten years in a hospital, then decide you wanna further your education, your kind of at a loss. You gotta work, plus get your BSN and THEN move on to your masters. I just see it as a faster way to further your education if need be. Remember we never do nursing for the money.