An apparently suicidal man waded into San Francisco Bay on Monday, stood up to his neck, and waited. As the man drowned, police, fire crews, and others watched idly from the shore.
Why? Officials blamed a departmental policy, stemming from budget cuts, that prevented them from jumping in to save him.
Fifty-year-old Raymond Zack spent nearly an hour in the water before drowning. A crowd of about 75 people, in addition to first responders, watched from the beach in Alameda across the bay from San Francisco as Zack inched farther and farther away, sometimes glancing back, a witness told the San Jose Mercury News. "The next thing he was floating face down."
A volunteer eventually pulled Zack's lifeless body from the Bay.
Mike D'Orazi of the Alameda Fire Department said that, due to 2009 budget cuts, his crews lacked the training and gear to enter the water. And a Coast Guard boat couldn't access the area because the water was too shallow.
"The incident yesterday was deeply regrettable," D'Orazi said Tuesday. "But I can also see it from our firefighters' perspective. They're standing there wanting to do something, but they are handcuffed by policy at that point."
Alameda Police Lt. Sean Lynch also suggested his men did the right thing. "He was engaged in a deliberate act of taking his own life," Lynch told the Mercury News. "We did not know whether he was violent, whether drugs were involved. It's not a situation of a typical rescue."
But at a City Council hearing Tuesday night, some locals expressed outrage that Zack was left to die. "This just strikes me as not just a problem with funding, but a problem with the culture of what's going on in our city, that no one would take the time and help this drowning man," said one resident, Adam Gillitt.
The city said it would spend up to $40,000 to certify 16 firefighters in land-based water rescues.
One witness to the event told a local news station that Zack was looking at people on the shore. "We expected to see at some point that there would be a concern for him," said another.
We can go back and forth on this, but I wouldn't compare a mentally ill person with a obese person who chooses to over eat or a Cancer patient that chooses to smoke. Depending on his mental illness, it could have been mentally out of his control, was he hallucinating? Did the voices tell him to jump? I don't know that part of the situation, but in some mental illnesses, the illness causes them to do these things, it is not a personal choice.
I understand, and agree to a certain extent. However, asking someone to attempt a rescue when the chance of failure is greater than the chance of success on someone, who voices or not, has placed themselves in this situation is not only unfair, it's criminal.
Again, reality differs from entertainment. Not everyone can be saved.
Specializes in Mental Health, Medical Research, Periop.
I understand, and agree to a certain extent. However, asking someone to attempt a rescue when the chance of failure is greater than the chance of failure is greater than the chance of success on someone, who voices or not, has placed themselves in this situation is not only unfair, it's criminal.
Again, reality differs from entertainment. Not everyone can be saved.
I repeat, I was NOT commenting on the rescuing. I just wanted to clarify mental illness and generally what happens. In regards to the rescuing, I was not there, I don't live in San Francisco, and I have no experience in fire fighting. As I said earlier, that I think it's sad and unfair that the budget doesn't cover the things that the rescuers need in order to do their job. My ONLY thing was to clarify what I believe is a misconception about the mentally ill, and that is all.
Which is a societal and familial issue which heaping more blame upon the responders in this case won't fix.
Life's tough. Not everyone can be saved. This man, mentally ill or not, placed himself in an untenable situation. It's no different than an obese patient who chooses to continue to eat things that will kill him or a lung CA patient who continues to smoke. We will do everything practical and safe to help them. However, in this case, there was nothing practical or safe that could be done.
While I agree that blaming the responders is not the solution for the problem, please remember that mental illness is in fact an illness and not a flaw or character weakness. Yes, it is different from the obese patient who continues to eat inappropriate things or the lung CA pt who continues to smoke as these things patients often times make their decisions based off of limited education as to how their choices will effect their future health i.e the lung CA pt may believe "why quit smoking? the damage has already been done.". Suicidal ideation has more to do with the patient's psychopathology and current circumstances and coping mechanisms and the thought processes/patterns behind SI are not something that can be turned off like a light switch.
I realize I'm probably preaching to the choir, but I think it's important that we all remember as healthcare professionals (especially since we have all had to take at least one psychology course at some point) that mental illness IS in fact illness and not an affliction of the weak.
Didn't he want to kill himself? What are the firefighters supposed to do? They are mandated to certain things. My first question was, "what about the national guard".....what about the "lifeguard on call"..........they ought to have a few. Doesn't sound like too much money to me. But as RNs....doesn't the patient have the right to refuse......LIFE??? We all have crosses to bare. The suicidal man.....well, he is done with whatever cross he had. It IS sad. I am very surprised some bystander on the beach did not try to help him......as he would be protected by the good samaritan laws. How come firefighters aren't??????? Hum. I dunno.......it seems all should have the right to end their lives.....yet it also seems that SOMEONE should assess and make sure this is what the person REALLY wants.........ugh......2011.
Specializes in Mental Health, Medical Research, Periop.
While I agree that blaming the responders is not the solution for the problem, please remember that mental illness is in fact an illness and not a flaw or character weakness. Yes, it is different from the obese patient who continues to eat inappropriate things or the lung CA pt who continues to smoke as these things patients often times make their decisions based off of limited education as to how their choices will effect their future health i.e the lung CA pt may believe "why quit smoking? the damage has already been done.". Suicidal ideation has more to do with the patient's psychopathology and current circumstances and coping mechanisms and the thought processes/patterns behind SI are not something that can be turned off like a light switch.
I realize I'm probably preaching to the choir, but I think it's important that we all remember as healthcare professionals (especially since we have all had to take at least one psychology course at some point) that mental illness IS in fact illness and not an affliction of the weak.
What if the person was not mentally ill and ended up over their head in water (by accident) in the same geographic location, do you think the rescue personnel should have followed policy and stayed out of the water?
Suicidal ideation has more to do with the patient's psychopathology and current circumstances and coping mechanisms and the thought processes/patterns behind SI are not something that can be turned off like a light switch.
I understand this, but again, not everyone can be saved. I don't believe suicidal ideation and mental illness are anything other than a medical condition. But some people are going to be successful. And in the context of this debate, other than those with active psychosis, MOST of these patients are going to have some idea of the possible consequences of their actions. If they're truly intent on death, many of them will be willing to take you with them. If it's a "cry for help" then there are more effective outlets. We may want to excuse all personal responsibility in the name of compassion but doing so leads to situations like this.
I realize I'm probably preaching to the choir, but I think it's important that we all remember as healthcare professionals (especially since we have all had to take at least one psychology course at some point) that mental illness IS in fact illness and not an affliction of the weak.
I never said it was a sign of weakness. However, it may be a condition that is incompatible with life the same as cancer, MI, stroke, ect. We can't apply some tenants of medicine and not others. If suicidal ideation is strong enough, the patient WILL kill themselves. Demonizing those who recognize this as inhumane is no more fair than denying treatment to the mentally ill patient.
What if the person was not mentally ill and ended up over their head in water (by accident) in the same geographic location, do you think the rescue personnel should have followed policy and stayed out of the water?
Yep, absolutely. Again, if your not familiar with contact water rescue, you don't know how difficult this discipline is. Risk:Benefit. In this case the risk was great, and the chance of success was extremely low.
I understand this, but again, not everyone can be saved. I don't believe suicidal ideation and mental illness are anything other than a medical condition. But some people are going to be successful. And in the context of this debate, other than those with active psychosis, MOST of these patients are going to have some idea of the possible consequences of their actions. If they're truly intent on death, many of them will be willing to take you with them. If it's a "cry for help" then there are more effective outlets. We may want to excuse all personal responsibility in the name of compassion but doing so leads to situations like this.
I never said it was a sign of weakness. However, it may be a condition that is incompatible with life the same as cancer, MI, stroke, ect. We can't apply some tenants of medicine and not others. If suicidal ideation is strong enough, the patient WILL kill themselves. Demonizing those who recognize this as inhumane is no more fair than denying treatment to the mentally ill patient.
This has less to do with compassion and more to do with the fact that this man fell through the cracks of our flawed mental health system and our societies flawed views on what mental illness actually is. People also typically look at suicide as an option as an act of desperation to get the pain of their current and past situations to cease after exhausting all means of coping with their situation that they know of, so a "cry for help" often times is an inaccurate representation.
Yes, people are going to die from suicide no matter what we do it is after all the ultimate complication from untreated mental illness or mental illnesses that fail to respond to treatment. But suicide rates are rising every year, not decreasing or plateauing but rising, obviously we're not doing something right.
I truly am NOT trying to demonize the rescuers. As I've stated, my anger lies with the bigger picture, not with those that were there. They were in an impossible situation, and of course it is better to have only one death that to have several due to a failed rescue. I just think this circumstance is an excellent example of how much work we need to do not only on our mental health system but also on making sure that EMS crews have the budget, training, etc they need to be able to do what they need to do.
I've got to say I haven't read all of these posts, but I have found an alternate news story on the tragedy that doesn't seem to be written to blame the rescuers.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
QOUTE: By then, nearly 45 minutes had elapsed from the time authorities first arrived, said Lieutenant Sean Lynch, investigations commander for the Alameda Police Department.
Minutes later, as the surf pushed the man's body closer to shore, a civilian onlooker finally swam out on her own and pulled the man back to the beach, where emergency personnel tried in vain to resuscitate him, Lynch told Reuters.
Shallow waters prevented a Coast Guard rescue boat from getting close enough to help, and a Coast Guard helicopter called to the scene arrived too late, according to spokesman Marcus Brown said.
"Every reasonable effort was being made to save this individual," Lynch said, insisting there was little else emergency personnel could do without risking their own lives. The temperature of the water was 54 degrees Fahrenheit. end QUOTE> http://www.vsv.cape.com/~harharb/temptest.html
Nantuck sound water temp Memorial Day......59 degrees......people swam in the water at the beach and didn't die of hypothermia......a female civilian onlooker :eek:was the one who pulled him out of the water and then the FF attempted to do something. The coast guard boat couoldn't go anyfurther because the water was too shallow and the water was shallow enough to watch this man walk for several hundred yards and kept looking back and they FF couldn't try to walk towards him? I just can't wrap my mind that professionals just watched......Did they watch because he was committing sucide? Would they have tried if it was just someone swimming and go into trouble? sad...
Again, I REALLY think people fail to understand the difference between being in the water for a few minutes and dragging someone back in vs an extended rescue effort of a conscious person in water possibly over your head who may be panicked or combative. Completely different situations.
If I had been the incident commander I would not have allowed water entry either. Whether it was suicide or accidental drowning. Again, risk vs benefit.
Untrained people who don't understand water rescue making comments like the one above is like the general public commenting on answering call bells.
An apparently suicidal man waded into San Francisco Bay on Monday, stood up to his neck, and waited. As the man drowned, police, fire crews, and others 
usalsfyre
194 Posts
I understand, and agree to a certain extent. However, asking someone to attempt a rescue when the chance of failure is greater than the chance of success on someone, who voices or not, has placed themselves in this situation is not only unfair, it's criminal.
Again, reality differs from entertainment. Not everyone can be saved.