I apologize if I am sounding stupid now,but I am just curious. We have all heard about the case in California with the 13 yr old,and how she is brain dead. Of course,she is on a vent,and the family wants her to get a trach and gtube.
I have several pts that are "unresponsive" meaning they don't talk, blink their eyes, nothing, no purposeful movement, nothing. All but one is on a vent, and all have trach and gt. At least one doesn't even use a gtube. She has been on Tpn for 1.5 years now for all her nutritional needs. One boy is a Dnr order, but with the understanding that we are to rescucitate him using the Ambubag, but if his heart stops, we do nothing. (I haven't seen a Dnr order like that before, and this is the first one I've seen like that)
It also says "at parents discretion", meaning that they could change their minds and make us do chest compressions. (according to nursing supervisor). This same boy had an EEG,and it shows no activity.
Anyway,I'm not seeing the big issue with the California case as I have several kids with vents, trach, and gtubes that are well...I'm not saying the words.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
I'm sorry,it should read "Paul Bryne,a pediatric professor at the University of Toledo" said.
He is MD and a neonatologist, a pediatrician, and a catholic. He doesn't believe in birth control, abortion, or organ donation unless from a living donor which then excludes heart, lung, valve transplants. Period.
He is entitled to his opinion....
We acknowledge that life on earth is a continuum from its conception to its natural end. We believe that life exists in each cell, tissue, organ and system of the living person on earth. For this reason, the life of each and every person needs to be protected and preserved regardless of their health or state of mind. Therefore, it is irreverent to address a human person with terms such as “brain dead,” “vegetative state,” “terminal condition,” and “imminent danger of death.” Such designations have been proposed and are actively used for the sole purpose of demeaning and shortening life, as well as to hasten the death of a human person.
He doesn't believe with other medical professional about brain death and no cerebral blood flow...he believes a beating heart is life
Today’s secular society is attacking human life at the time of its greatest frailty. Most often, these attacks are being carried out in the very heart and complicity of a profession who have swore to protect, defend and heal human life, not destroy members of the human family, which by its very nature is called to be the sanctuary of life. Shamefully, “brain death” was invented for the sole purpose of obtaining healthy vital organs for profit from babies, children and adult human persons who are not truly dead. Life Guardian Foundation leadership and its members are opposed to any declaration of “brain death.” Persons with head injuries need to have their life protected and preserved. No one should be declared dead until and unless there is separation of the soul from the body. When this separation occurs, what is left on earth is the remains, a corpse, an empty body.
and whether he is right or wrong.....he is entitled to his opinion.
and like every other charlatan out there they are feeding on this case like hungry vultures getting thier name in the news with free advertisment and gain donations from the public...and torturing this family further.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Will she "decompose" if she is allowed to stay on the vent?What I mean is that will her brain liquify?
Vent or no vent her heart will stop beating and the vent will continue to let air in and let air out. That will not mean she is alive. The machine does nothing but postpone the inevitable.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
This is the post I'm referring to.I didn't just pull it out of nowhere.
The brain stem is what determines life or death. It is responsible for those unconscious functions of the body such as breathing . As a former critical care nurse I am concerned that they are saying brain death and it may actually be persist any vegetative. All the years of experience I have with those declared with brain death generally die regardless of the ventilator and/ or pressors. The body will ultimately die on its own. She has been "alive" way too long since it was evaluated. Funny when the Karen Ann Quinlan case made headlines about 30 yrs ago they said she was brain dead too. She lived another 10 yrs after she was removed from the vent.
30 years ago there was no real internationally accepted declaration of brain death. We lacked the sophisticated equipment and guidelines to determine true brain death. It is clear that Karen Ann Quinlian was not brain dead as she had brain stem function, she breathed. The true debate started about then when we (the medical community) discovered that we cold interfere and keep someone "alive" who in fact have no chance at recovery. Medicine had reached a point in technology that exceeded expectations and now has an ethical dilemma on their hands. Quantity versus quality.
I disagree with lmccrn respectfully as the knowlege and drugs has grown....the capabilities of sustaining a beating heart have increased. Jahi has a 13 year old non diseased heart which can continue for sometime with the assistance of heavy drugs and machines to support her B/P and oxygenation. But they will still fail.
Errrr I'm so sick of this guy already."DR. PAUL BYRNE" is a pediatrician. He is not a neurologist, therefore has no weight in this case except for adding to the family's hope by stating Jahi is ALIVE. He's already been discredited for this case, he is of no use. He has his own motives, he is catholic and is basing his knowledge off of his beliefs.I find nothing that he is saying 'interesting'."The ventilator won't work on a corpse," he said. "In a corpse, the ventilator pushes the air in, but it won't come out. Just the living person pushes the air out."Anyone????
So, by his standard, I could attach a balloon to the end of the tubing and it will become a living person? This is great news. I have at least a dozen balloons left over from new year's, and I've always wanted minions to help me clean my house and cook. *Whips out sharpie to draw faces on balloons. Feels a bit like Dr. Frankenstein*To think, I've been so overwhelmed and busy the last few years when this miraculous machine was right under my nose all the time!
In all seriousness, "Dr." Byrne might want to review gas flow and pressure gradients. I think if my balloon minions fail to come alive I will sue him for offering me false hope of help.
Specializes in Oncology; medical specialty website.
This is probably totally irrelevant and possibly even wrong -- but I feel like this entire thread completely embodies how isolating and even alienating from the rest of the nursing and medical community PDN can be, especially when you fall into PDN as a new-grad (like the OP) and never get the chance to leave.
*I* started in PDN as a new-grad BSN before I went into acute care. In acute care, I can bounce questions and ideas off NPs, doctors, and my dozen or so RN coworkers. When I started in PDN, I was pretty much confined to the insular world of (maybe) the same on/off coming nurse (who may or may not have had odd ideas about things) and the family who also may or may not have some misinformation or even outright crazy ideas floating around.
So....yeah...
True, but there is still no excuse not to do learning on your own related to our own specialty and others. There are so many free ceu sites out there; it's inexcusable to say you didn't have the opportunity to learn.
30 years ago there was no real internationally accepted declaration of brain death. We lacked the sophisticated equipment and guidelines to determine true brain death. It is clear that Karen Ann Quinlian was not brain dead as she had brain stem function, she breathed. The true debate started about then when we (the medical community) discovered that we cold interfere and keep someone "alive" who in fact have no chance at recovery. Medicine had reached a point in technology that exceeded expectations and now has an ethical dilemma on their hands. Quantity versus quality.I disagree with lmccrn respectfully as the knowlege and drugs has grown....the capabilities of sustaining a beating heart have increased. Jahi has a 13 year old non diseased heart which can continue for sometime with the assistance of heavy drugs and machines to support her B/P and oxygenation. But they will still fail.
I misintepreted what she said.It seems as if she was saying that regardless of the vent,Jahi would have died a "cardiac" death even while on the vent.
True, but there is still no excuse not to do learning on your own related to our own specialty and others. There are so many free ceu sites out there; it's inexcusable to say you didn't have the opportunity to learn.
Yes,you are right. I didn't know about the free sites.One thing the agency does is lots of inservice,so I was still able to keep up on changes.Most of it is geared for Home care Peds and specifically Professional boundaries and Respiratory.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
I misintepreted what she said.It seems as if she was saying that regardless of the vent,Jahi would have died a "cardiac" death even while on the vent.
Jahi will suffer a cessation of cardiac activity eventually even on the vent. The timing of this is unknown as medicine can help sustain a "healthy" 13 year old heart for a while. Her heart isn't her problem
True but there is still no excuse not to do learning on your own related to our own specialty and others. There are so many free ceu sites out there; it's inexcusable to say you didn't have the opportunity to learn.[/quote']
This.
As a HH PDN nurse for 5 of the seven years I was a LPN, being in PDN/HH made me MORE keep up with CEUs for the benefit for my patients; EBM and changes to medications and treatment and being able to explain to the family helps...
So by his standard, I could attach a balloon to the end of the tubing and it will become a living person? This is great news. I have at least a dozen balloons left over from new year's, and I've always wanted minions to help me clean my house and cook. *Whips out sharpie to draw faces on balloons. Feels a bit like Dr. Frankenstein*To think, I've been so overwhelmed and busy the last few years when this miraculous machine was right under my nose all the time! In all seriousness, "Dr." Byrne might want to review gas flow and pressure gradients. I think if my balloon minions fail to come alive I will sue him for offering me false hope of help.[/quote']
I did PDN for 18 months, but still managed to have plenty of nursing contacts outside of the PDN world. I'm not trying to be mean, but you're really doing yourself a disservice by not net-working beyond your "specialty". There's a whole big world beyond the bedroom of the clients that you're currently caring for, don't limit yourself to just what's happening inside that one room. Besides, if you ever want to leave PDN, it's helpful to have contacts who might have an "in" with other facilities =)
I meant that they "cram" them.That is common,as I have asked around.Once again,I'm in private duty,so I've obviously only asked Pdn nurses.
So, by his standard, I could attach a balloon to the end of the tubing and it will become a living person? This is great news. I have at least a dozen balloons left over from new year's, and I've always wanted minions to help me clean my house and cook. *Whips out sharpie to draw faces on balloons. Feels a bit like Dr. Frankenstein*To think, I've been so overwhelmed and busy the last few years when this miraculous machine was right under my nose all the time!In all seriousness, "Dr." Byrne might want to review gas flow and pressure gradients. I think if my balloon minions fail to come alive I will sue him for offering me false hope of help.
!!!
Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN
20,908 Posts
He is entitled to his opinion....
He doesn't believe with other medical professional about brain death and no cerebral blood flow...he believes a beating heart is lifeand whether he is right or wrong.....he is entitled to his opinion.http://www.lifeguardianfoundation.org/missionstatement.html
and like every other charlatan out there they are feeding on this case like hungry vultures getting thier name in the news with free advertisment and gain donations from the public...and torturing this family further.