I had an arguement with one of my nurse practicioners yesterday. Irregardless of how any of us feel about immigrants, legal or illegal, it's very frustrating to have to treat a patient when you or no one around speaks thier language. I've encountered it many times, and most of you have as well.
As a military brat, I encountered other cultures that told me that in thier nation, they were required to take other language classes in school, from primary and certainly be fluent in at least one other than thier mother tounge to have a university degree. I sometimes think that we should require nurses to learn at least one other language. My practicioner got HOT and tells me I am nuts. That other industrialized nations do not require citizens to learn a second language in school. Back it up.
Can any of you help me with where to find data to back up my arguement?
Yeah I still don't get what you were trying to say.
Are any of those races a majority in the chosen nation? No now you are just being silly.
I have family that have come here legally and I find it offensive that you all have this take on Mexicans. This "Expectation" you think they have to speak their language.
I didn't see anyone say anything about Mexicans. I believe that what was referred to was those that speak Spanish as their only language. This includes a great deal more than people from Mexico.
And I have dealt with the exact same issue.
In 15 years, I have dealt with patients of numerous nationalities and that speak many languages. And most of them have been understanding of the need to get a translator and that I might not know their language.
Expect for many of our Spanish speaking clientele. I get a lot of grief (relayed via translators) that I do not speak Spanish. This despite the fact that I use my limited "Spanish for Medical Professionals" to the best of my ability, as a matter of politeness.
And notably, it has been only those that speak Spanish that have been insistant on this. Despite having worked in areas where the dominant languages have been Mandarin, Cantonese, Hebrew, German, Russian, Creole, French, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. I have worked in "Chinatown" of a major city, for 6 monthes and never got treated rudely for not knowing the language.
You do not have to like this observation. And this observation is not racist, it is a valid experience of some of us, so please do not dismiss it. And as nothing is being said bad or even references race or nationality at all, it is not appropriate to slam it as racist. To say that it is, is racist on its face as you are presuming that ALL people that speak Spanish are of one nationality/race.
And, no, do not chalk it up to them being ill or in pain. I have plenty of patients that speak other languages that are hurting, ill, in pain and ailing, that are still more understanding that healthcare workers may not know their language.
To address the topic, it would be nice if nurses knew a second language. But given that many of the ones on this BB cannot even master passable grammar and high school math skills, the priority for a second language is pretty low.
I know I said my earlier post was the last but I felt I had to clarify this one:
I have family that have come here legally and I find it offensive that you all have this take on Mexicans. This "Expectation" you think they have to speak their language.
I'm sorry - but you are sorely mistaken if you assume that you are the only one with family from a different nation, language and culture who entered this country legally.
Also, while we are at it; can you please point out where exactly I used the term "Mexicans" in any of my posts? Or generalized all 'immigrants' to belonging solely of "Hispanic" ancestry? I've consistently provided examples of "other languages and nationalities". My argument has always been that 'it behooves the immigrant to fit in, not vice-versa'.
More over - At no point did I ever mention race.
Please do not credit me with words, ideas or assumptions that I never made.
I withdraw my participation from this thread. It appears our opinions shal'n't meet and it's best we agree to disagree.
Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
Where I live, the reality is that people (not all people, but enough) do bend over backward to help those in the situation you described. My point is that it's not unrealistic for a new immigrant to expect the same, because it is occurring here every day already.
I'm one of the people with the skills necessary (language-wise) to help non-English speakers, so you guys can be mad at me if you like. I don't do it out of a desire to perpetuate a cycle of illegal immigration, but I do it mainly because I already have the skills and it adds to my value as an employee.
Why would anyone be mad at you for speaking Spanish, or any other second language? You are the second person to make this claim in the thread and it is thoroughly unwarranted. I myself said early on that it would be very helpful and I wish I could do it. Nonetheless, I don't consider it my responsibility, because, here's the thing... it's not. Great grand and goody for you that you do, but don't claim the rest of us are incapable of seeing the value of a skill that we don't happen to possess.
Pumpkin, where do you nurse? I live in an ag county in California. I can say, with 100% confidence, that the people in this county who get upset that we don't speak their language are ALL Spanish-speakers. I never said it's like that everywhere, I said what I did to point out that your experience is not the same as everyone else's. I never said all Spanish-speakers have this attitude, I said that all the people with this attitude are Spanish-speakers. Big difference, using your analogy about blacks being criminals.
I'm from the Washington DC area Tazzi. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
I withdraw my participation from this thread. It appears our opinions shal'n't meet and it's best we agree to disagree.
Agreed. I withdraw as well. I would also like to add that regardless of our difference of opinion I still have respect for each of you.
Wow! A topic right off one of my favorite soapboxes! I speak enough Spanish that I can get by quite well with labor or post partum patients. Often without an interpretor. So well, in fact, that I decided to look into becoming a certified interpretor, only to find out that regardless of how well you speak Spanish, it is almost impossible to become a certified interpretor in the State of Washington, unless Spanish is your birth language. How silly is that?
Also, laws must vary from state to state, because in Washington, we are required to get an interpretor if a patient requests one. Doesn't matter how well they speak English, or even where they were born. Shoot, I have had many 20 year olds, born in this country, who requested, and got, interpretor services (which cost the taxpayers of this great liberal state pots of money!) And I too, find that the Spanish speaking patients are the ones who require interpretors more than others. The Asian people are proud to be able to speak English and I think some are offended when asked if they need an interpretor.
In our birth center, we have Ukrainian, Ethiopian, Vietnamese, Thai, Hispanic, to name a few. How can we all be fluent in their languages? We can't and since some of them won't learn English, we are required by law to provide costly interpretors for them. Bringing their own interpretors is not allowed due to the possibility of those people not knowing proper medical terminology.
Recently on a brief layover in the Las Vegas airport, I had a conversation with a woman who has a PhD in something having to do with ESL, and she flat out told me that people who are not native English speakers should continue to speak their native language as much as possible (and everywhere I guess) because it makes learning English so much easier. What? I would think practicing your English speaking skills would be helpful, but what do I know? I think she's a classic example of someone being booksmart, having lots of "studies" to reference, but has no clue about the real world.
I speak Spanish with my patients as much as possible, not because I want to help them necessarily, but because it improves my own skills. I feel strongly that they should learn and use English. To that end, I ask them if they speak English. IF they say "a little" then I tell them we'll get along fine because I speak "a little" Spanish. In fact, I speak more than a little, and they usually speak more than a little English also. The point is, I expect them to TRY. And most do. I've had many compliment me on my skills, and many will also help me with grammar or words.
Those who expect every place in the US to be bi-lingual fail to realize that would mean we all should speak at least 100 different languages. How realistic is that?
I am not opposed to knowing a second or third language. I also speak a little French. But being required to do so for those who refuse to learn or use their own English skills bugs me.
Oh, the good Doctor also accused me of being prejudiced because I told her I thought people should try to speak English as much as possible outside their own homes. She's dead wrong on that. The thing that gets my prejudicial blood boiling is all the money legal citizens pay out for services too many to list for illegal immigrants.
Learning a second language, especially in adulthood, is very difficult. It's not just a matter of taking a couple classes before you come here, or enrolling in ESOL once you get here. You're lucky if your English classes in another country teach you anything more than just how to say "the book is on the table". It takes time, and I don't mean a few months, I mean a few years, to learn a new language. Not to mention that when you're sick, and feeling ill, and scared, you tend to revert to the comfort you know in your own language.
Exactly! I took Spanish for 6 years and tested out of the language requirement in college! But I've never beein toally immersed in Spanish, and I will never be fluent in it! Can I get by? Sure, for the most part. But how can I learn Spanish from a class if they can't learn English from one? My friend is Chinese - came here when he was 8. He learned English from watching Sesame street. Granted, he was young, but these people have every opportunity to practice and learn - and for the record, I have never EVER seen anyone get "huffy" when someone's grammar isn't spot on. I appreciate so much that they try, and besides, most native speakers (of any language, not just English) don't use textbook perfect grammar anyway.
And by the way... el libro esta en la mesa. Is that close? "cause I'm not even sure I can say *that* correctly...but I say it anyway! I do my best!
I also work postpartum and have found that many patients understand English far better than they can speak it. I'm the same way in Spanish. I can often follow a conversation (if it's not too fast), but might not be able to participate in it. I can work my way through written material fairly well, and that also seems to be the case with my Hispanic patients.
I use the language line for anything medical, especially anything requiring a decision or a consent. But my "poco Espanol" and their "little English" are usually sufficient to cover ADL's.
On my unit, we do not assume Hispanic patients are Mexican. We have cared for women from Honduras, Guatemala, Colombia, Cuba, and many other countries.
The attitudes vary. Most are grateful that translation is provided, and they are appreciative of my humble attempts to speak Spanish. A few come across as entitled and distinctly UN-appreciative. Those are the ones that leave me frustrated and shaking my head.
I am trying to improve my Spanish skills because of the first group and in spite of the second.
People don't ever say oh lets be nice to our neighbors and incorporate their language into our society
Do they speak English in Mexico? Do they have English interpreters at hospitals? If I move there and can't find a job, are they going to allow me to recieve free healthcare services? I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that, I'm just trying to point out that it goes both ways.
they are hurt/have family that is hurting and they are frustrated at the communication barrier.
Yes, and who created the barrier? Again, I don't have anyting against people coming here (but I prefer that they do it legally), and if you're here short term, then just bring your dictionary with you, and we can get interpretors and all that if we need to(we have about 25 languages available at my hospital right now). But why are they allowed to be frustrated when they came here without learning the language, but I'm not allowed to be frustrated that I can't communicate with my pt? We live in a litigious society - is that family going to sue me because that guy had an MI and I couldn't understand what he was trying to tell me (just an example, that hasn't happened that I know of!)?
A few months ago, 3 of my 5 pts didn't speak English! I had a Spanish, a Somali, and a Russian in my group! One of them had a daughter that spoke a bit of English and was able to help out a little bit, but what in the world was I supposed to do in that situation!!! Granted, I think the charge RN should have broken up that assignment, but that's not the point!
It's a basic safety issue, even outside of healthcare. A few weeks ago somewhere around where I live, a toddler drowned (it was a pond or a pool or something at an apartment complex, I believe). They didn't get the help they needed because the person who called 9-1-1 spoke Spanish, and the dispatcher didn't. Guess who got all the flak for that? The dispatcher, of course, as if it was her responsibility to learn Spanish. I agree that what happened is awful, and it would have been really nice if that person could have helped - but why was it OUR system's responsibility to do the learning when I'm sure it's been in place a lot longer than that family has been in this country. We have a HUGE Spanish-speaking population where I live, but I still don't think that means that I have to learn Spanish. If the person who had called 9-1-1 had been able to say "I need help, kid fell in pond", the dispatcher would have had a pretty good idea of what was going on, don't you think? Again, I'm NOT asking for perfection!!!!! Just make an effort!
Specializes in ob high risk, labor and delivery, postp.
I read pages 1-6 then skipped to here, so if I repeat something that was said, I apologize.
I work on the Mother-Baby Wing usually in postpartum, high risk pregancy or triage of obstetrical patients. Usually I can get my point across pretty well in Spanish..just by using gestures and some words I've picked up along the way (like words for pushing, pain, a little, a lot, the numbers,water, cold, hot,blood, breathe,). However, I have also taken care of women from African countries, Turkey, France, Germany, South American countries, Portugal, China, Japan, Korea..please note most of these did not expect me to know their language. We have the language line also, but you have to first call and get the approval from the hospital supervisor to use it due to the cost. I also don't think that there should be laws or expectations that we know other languages. I took German in school because that's where I was born (Army brat) and I thought I should know a little of the language. My kids both take Spanish, as did my husband. He remembers very little, my daughter has had about 8 years of it, and was pretty good but says that even though she has not spoken it in only one year, she is losing her fluency. She is loathe to speak it, but can understand it pretty well..since she's a blue-eyed blonde, this can be interesting and amusing since people will say things in front of her thinking she won't understand...
As far as the language line goes, it does take time, and I would't want to live in a country where my care might be delayed by a language barrier, so I would make it a point to learn the language or bring an interpreter. Also, I think that we should be able to charge the patient for any service charges we incur to communicate with them. I once had to leave a Korean couples room to cool down (otherwise I would have screamed at them), after spending over an hour doing an admission data base. Even though the husband was a graduate student at a local prestigious university (so must speak some English he even taught some classes as an assistant) he requested that I use the language line. We got permission and a Korean interpreter on the phone. After we had completed the paperwork (computerized mostly), the husband and wife started speaking to each other in Korean and then the husband asked if we could start over!! He expressed (and pretty clearly IN ENGLISH) that they were more comfortable with another dialect of Korean AND that they would prefer a female interpreter next time. Honestly, I almost lost it.
As far as Spanish goes..this is the most dominant second language here, as apparantly elsewhere in the US, this seems to be the people who expect us to accomodate them the most. Maybe its because they know they can. I know there have been lawsuits where a Spanish person won, just because they did not feel they were catered to in their own language. In our area , a case was won..not because anything was actually done wrong medically (or omitted for that matter), but simply because the lawyer brought out that no one in the ECU spoke fluent Spanish other than an orderly and the jury was conned into thinking that wasn't high enough on the educational level of medicine. My own hospital was sued (it was settled for ?) because the spouse of a patient was deaf, NOT the patient, and he felt he should have been provided with an interpreter and telephone accesorries while she was at the hospital (as an outpatient!) That person not only got whatever the settlement was. but it was upsetting how much we had to bend over backwards for them..meals for him the whole time she was here, given one of the large private rooms, etc..Let me add that she was fully able to interpret for him the entire time she was here. I usually fully support interpreters for the deaf, but it was ridiculous!
Also, I think we should be able to pass on the cost of interpreting services to the patient. Even in Medical Assistance Cases, it should be bill-able as a charge to the patient. If they default on the bill we can get the collectors going. These people have all the latest cell phones and gadgets (okay not all of them, but most).
I can't imagine how bad it must be in border states, because even here in Pennsylvania we have women who have had several babies at our hospital despite the fact that they are here illegally. Most of these are from Mexico and Columbia. Some don't even live here, but just come deliver so that the kids will be citizens. This is something we should stop..many other countries all ready have. Being born here should not confer automatic citizenship.
One thing that I thought was strange..when we visited California we often had trouble (at the mall and McDonald's in particular) because no one in the place spoke English! I felt like I had crossed the border. I know it is possible to be born in California and never learn English because I took care of a girl who spoke only Spanish, she and her boyfriend had run away from home to get married and came to Penna. He spoke English due to learning on jobs, but she had only lived in the "Barrio" and took classes all in Spanish through 11th grade when she left. Unbelievable.
He spoke English due to learning on jobs, but she had only lived in the "Barrio" and took classes all in Spanish through 11th grade when she left. Unbelievable.
YES!!!!!!!THIS is the big problem I have with education in CA. It's bad enough that non-English speakers here are literally catered to, but it goes on even in the schools!!! There is NO other school in the world that teaches bilingual education, none.
caroladybelle, BSN, RN
5,486 Posts
I didn't see anyone say anything about Mexicans. I believe that what was referred to was those that speak Spanish as their only language. This includes a great deal more than people from Mexico.
And I have dealt with the exact same issue.
In 15 years, I have dealt with patients of numerous nationalities and that speak many languages. And most of them have been understanding of the need to get a translator and that I might not know their language.
Expect for many of our Spanish speaking clientele. I get a lot of grief (relayed via translators) that I do not speak Spanish. This despite the fact that I use my limited "Spanish for Medical Professionals" to the best of my ability, as a matter of politeness.
And notably, it has been only those that speak Spanish that have been insistant on this. Despite having worked in areas where the dominant languages have been Mandarin, Cantonese, Hebrew, German, Russian, Creole, French, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. I have worked in "Chinatown" of a major city, for 6 monthes and never got treated rudely for not knowing the language.
You do not have to like this observation. And this observation is not racist, it is a valid experience of some of us, so please do not dismiss it. And as nothing is being said bad or even references race or nationality at all, it is not appropriate to slam it as racist. To say that it is, is racist on its face as you are presuming that ALL people that speak Spanish are of one nationality/race.
And, no, do not chalk it up to them being ill or in pain. I have plenty of patients that speak other languages that are hurting, ill, in pain and ailing, that are still more understanding that healthcare workers may not know their language.
To address the topic, it would be nice if nurses knew a second language. But given that many of the ones on this BB cannot even master passable grammar and high school math skills, the priority for a second language is pretty low.