We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
No time for that, sorry! Although I listen to every side of all issues, you are not interested in anything beyond yelling at people who oppose your view and I don't have time to waste.
Sent from my iPhone -- blame all errors on spellcheck
LOL, yes you "don't have time" to address you implication that I insulted your morality or that you are basing your argument on fear of autism because you know that I never said such a thing, nor implied anything close.
Who exactly is Uncle Sam? Is it Obama, Boehner, Reid, Gingrich, the Congress, the Stonecutters, the Masons, a different secret cabal whose name cannot be mentioned or what? Your statements do sound paranoid.
Only 4, huh? So you mean you might vaccinate your child for something that wouldn't kill them anyway and they might not be responders? Why not? Again, you don't understand how any of this works.
"Something that wouldn't kill them anyway"? Are you saying that measles can't kill a person?
According to the WHO there were approximately 145 700 measles deaths globally in 2013, most of the victims were children under the age of five. ONE HUNDRED FORTY-FIVE THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED DEATHS IN ONE YEAR is certainly an improvement over the estimated 2.6 million deaths per year caused by measles in the era before widespread vaccination, but it still is a substantial loss of life.
I don't understand how anyone can have such a cavalier attitude about this loss of human lives.
I found it interesting and depressing at the same time to follow the response and at times hysterical ruckus on AN and in the media, when Ebola Virus Disease reached the US. One thing I noticed though was that no one, no matter what side of the debate they were on, were cavalier or dismissive about the danger of this infectious disease ,and I think all agreed that a vaccine would be welcomed by most/all.
Measles has killed many more people than EVD, yet quite a few posters seem to scoff at the necessity of vaccination. Why is this? I find it odd. Measles can and does kill.
@hollisticallyminded, you keep referring to you "superior understanding" of vaccines. What is your academic/scholastic background? I wouldn't nomally ask a poster about their academic achievements, the only reason I do it now is because you keep referring to your expertise on this subject matter.
I noticed from you old posts that you used to work as a nutritionist and you've mentioned that you visit a Naturopath. What is you opinion of evidence-based medicine? I ask this, because Naturopaths are often in conflict with EBM, and are as far as I know opposed to vaccinations.
I just wanted to point something out. Not all non-vaccinating or delayed vaccinating parents believe there is a link between autism and vaccines. They might be in the minority, but I believe it is a common misconception. Many people I know who have delayed or have not vaccinated have done so because they question the vaccination schedule, the amount of vaccines given at one time, and the ingredients in the vaccine, not because Jenny McCarthy said, "Don't vaccinate your kids, people!"
Actually... all those "other things" you said are EXACTLY what Jenny McCarthy has been saying in addition to the autism BS. Almost all of it is couched in ignorance based fear and highly emotional luddism.
For example: "it FEELS like too much too fast." OK, where is the evidence to back this feeling? And IF there exists a risk, what is the benefit of giving more earlier? How do they balance?
Similarly, the arguments against ingredients are usually emotional appeals from ignorance of biochemistry.
Actually... all those "other things" you said are EXACTLY what Jenny McCarthy has been saying in addition to the autism BS. Almost all of it is couched in ignorance based fear and highly emotional luddism.
For example: "it FEELS like too much too fast." OK, where is the evidence to back this feeling? And IF there exists a risk, what is the benefit of giving more earlier? How do they balance?
Similarly, the arguments against ingredients are usually emotional appeals from ignorance of biochemistry.
Only 4, huh? So you mean you might vaccinate your child for something that wouldn't kill them anyway and they might not be responders? Why not? Again, you don't understand how any of this works.
What is the point of this post? Forgetting the patently false statement that measles doesn't kill (not to mention the other adverse effects), are you saying that because the MMR doesn't get 100% of the recipients to obtain immunity that it's not worth giving?
Please enlighten us as to your extensive expertise on the topic. You have a post-graduate degree in immunology/epidemiology I assume?
Well I was a biochem major at a top-tier college followed by a clinical master and then doctoral degree. I have an appropriate understanding of the topic at a provider level.
As I am sure you are aware, as an expert, that between 3 and 6% of those immunized for measles do not seroconvert.
For simplicity sake, if 100 properly immunized individuals are exposed to measles then 3-6 could develop the illness. Conversely if 100 unvaccinated individuals are exposed between 90-98 will develop the disease.
So with 1 in 5000 people that were not vaccinated for measles dying from measles resulting in 300 deaths/day worldwide, yes immunizing is "worth it".
If we consider that measles is an R of 12 then mathematically C must be greater than 0.92. If we take R to be 16 then C must be greater than 0.94.
In California the measles vaccination rate is as low as 87% (0.87, or close). That's why measles has made a big comeback in the past 3 years.
Sent from my iPhone.
Somehow I missed this post. Thank you for being someone who doesn't mind listing their credentials when they speak with authority on a subject.
I especially found this compelling:
For simplicity sake, if 100 properly immunized individuals are exposed to measles then 3-6 could develop the illness. Conversely if 100 unvaccinated individuals are exposed between 90-98 will develop the disease.
So with 1 in 5000 people that were not vaccinated for measles dying from measles resulting in 300 deaths/day worldwide, yes immunizing is "worth it".
Ok. I get that I "lost you". How is stating my opinion on an internet forum irrational, emotional, and harmful? Did I once say that I PREACH my opinion to patients? No. Would I? No. Would I even talk about my personal beliefs to patients? NO NO and NO. Come on people, pay attention. No I do not think every vaccine is bad. I do believe Uncle Sam has an agenda though, and where the power lies is not within the people. Yes I am in the healthcare profession, but I will NEVER follow any government including my own with blind faith. I am completely calm and completely rational, I am able to have a discussion calmly and without emotion and to listen to opposing sides with an open heart and open mind. Sorry if a potential form of population control scares you.
It's irresponsible as a health care provider to give out misinformation, period, end of story.
You lose credibility for yourself and for the rest of us in general. We don't live in a vacuum, we live in a health care community as members of it, as nurses. Still, individuals have every right to believe and even promote ridiculous conspiracy theories but it does these individuals no favors if they want to be taken seriously.
(Edited to add that I have two quotes in this response - one legitimately from BostonFNP, the other from HolisticallyMinded in another thread. The one from Holistically says it's from Boston, but it is a glitch on AN.)
Please enlighten us as to your extensive expertise on the topic. You have a post-graduate degree in immunology/epidemiology I assume?
I was at my kid's dance practice when I stumbled onto your post, Boston, and I found myself wondering the same thing. So I looked. Holistically has been here sinc 2006, and for such a long-standing member, she has very few posts, so it didn't take very long to get to know her a little.
I 2006, Holistically was a nutritionist (which she indicates gave a stronger science background than nursing) working with oncology/hematology pediatric patients. That year, she applied to, and went back to school. Her employer paid for her to attend an ASN program. She completed it in 2009. Her first year as a nurse, she spent doing home health with a pediatric population. Her second year, she spent in LTC/SNF. After that, she spent 11 months on a medical inpatient unit, which she hated. She managed to go back to her old LTC/SNF per diem. At this point, it was per diem. There is a post in 2011 saying she was going to get her BS or BSN, but nothing else was mentioned about that.
She is presently in her early 40s, and is a mom. Her tenure as a nutritionist was stated to be 5 years in 2006, 10 years in 2008. In 2012, she was working toward being a lactation consultant, and also states she was actively talking people out of going to nursing school. Many of her posts talk about how much she really dislikes nursing. It also appears she trusts napturopathy and her ND far deeper than she trusts certain aspects of medical care and research.
She states in one post she doesn't understand why nurses would work in a hospital, and that those of us who do must do it for the "status", and she equates hospital work to be akin to "slave labor". She feels that people who want to work in hospitals must be a bunch of 20-somethings with no work experience ever, and that "most" nurses learn everything on the job, and don't understand why we do any of what we do. She also says she will never believe a person who says that they never cut and paste assessment data from previously charted assessments. She also feels that those of us who felt "called" to nursing "need to stop the Florence Nightingale myth since it is highly damaging". (I'm not actually sure what that means.......?) She also feels that pregnant women should be warned that "death of a baby is sometimes a natural consequence of pregnancy", which is a strange thing to read from a person I would guess believes that pregnancy is actually a healthy, normal part of life. But, I digress.
There was another vaccination thread in which she stated that no one has any idea how these things work. That's actually why I kept reading beyond the simple search of her education background. After seeing her say twice that none of us knows how any of this works, I wondered what she believes is the way vaccination works. After reading almost every single post she wrote, I found this -
You've forgotten something that may help you with informed opinion:
There are TWO parts to the immune system and they are never talked about regarding vaccination. A healthy person has the ability to isolate and kill any pathogen that enters them. To bypass this mechanism for the second result (long-term immunity) is not how our bodies are intended to work. Immune cells encounter live pathogen, kill it, then others relay for the long-term.
Should we discuss probiotics here? All of those gut bacteria are part of our immune system. We are more than WBCs.
We so often hear that when a person is exposed to something like the flu, they are infectious during an incubation period (before symptoms are felt), but what we forget to mention is that a virus needs to replicate faster than our immune system can kill it in order for us to ever become sick, infectious (shedding) and symptomatic.
Naturopathy relies on the body's own defenses to stave off illness. This is real preventive care. Flu vaccine is MEDICINE. And it should hardly be recommended for everyone. There are very many things an individual can do to stay well.
My god, a pharmacist can prescribe and give you vaccines. Your employer can prescribe and give you vaccines. Unbelievable.
Do what I do- get a note from your provider that says it is not recommended that you receive any vaccines at this time (I see an ND). Or sign a declination form, if able. You have the right to make your own (informed) health care decisions. The aluminum or mercury preservative alone (in larger vial sizes) should be deterrent enough (often the REAL reason people say they got "the flu" directly after vaccination).
Another thing that is never discussed, each blood group has natural immunity to particular flu virus. So to receive vaccination for something that if contracted, would result in a very mild case of flu, is not necessary. Again, the adjuvants in vaccine alone may possibly put some at risk for autoimmune or neurological disorders later in life.
Too often nurses and other providers are guilt-tripped into sacrificing their own health for the sake of their "patients." BS. Take your health into your own hands. Gov't agencies don't care about individuals. Who are we kidding??
I think the real reason nurses sign up to take the needle is that 1) they don't understand how the immune system works, making them easy targets with guilt and faulty facts/logic, 2) they have been taught to believe that vaccines work. That's another thread entirely.
I urge all nurses to go pick up an old textbook and really dive into this immune system thing that is glossed over in nursing school. And please don't pick a nursing textbook. If you see anything in it that recommends vaccination, find another one.
And for all of those nurses that my words won't convince (since I'd have to actually explain it all to you here and I can't do that in a post), stop your self-righteous health propagandizing; every time I hear you going on about "protecting patients" I recognize that you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.
And I'm not logging back in to read any f/u posts so you can lambast me all you want. I do this because there are fundamental health divides in this country and I am clearly on the side of opposition, advocating for REAL health care. I truly hope that this was the intention of the OP.
Holistically - you fail deeply at understanding the very POINT of vaccination, and it is blindingly obvious in the 3rd sentence (or is it the second?). You discuss here the immune process of HEALTHY PEOPLE. I really don't think YOU understand how this works. Unless maybe you have a better explanation than the one you offered here?
Horseshoe, BSN, RN
5,879 Posts
LOL, yes you "don't have time" to address you implication that I insulted your morality or that you are basing your argument on fear of autism because you know that I never said such a thing, nor implied anything close.
Got it.