Am I a bully?

NotYourMamasRN · Jul 5, 2016

I don't really understand the situation being described. But having worked in business and HR before becoming a nurse, I know that creating a hostile work environment after being repeatedly counseled is grounds for termination. I suspect there might have been more going on considering you are saying you were already on their radar for something that led to suspension. Usually, there is a process that goes something like Verbal Warning, Written Warning, Suspension, Termination. I am assuming that if someone is up to suspension and then fired, they have been counseled on whatever their actions have been and with no change and another occurrence comes termination.

Just a side note, when a nurse is drowning and needs help their lifeline is their charge nurse. I know when my charge is having a hard day and she gives me a little attitude when I need help. But being downright turned down for help... that is just unacceptable practice and deplorable leadership.

floridaRN38 · Jul 5, 2016

I was written up and was fired for this. I was charge doing three different tasks at the same time at 1200. A RN comes up to me and says I' m so busy.I looked up from the discharge paper I was working on and said "that's too bad you are so busy , staff should be returning from lunch soon". So I'm being told saying "that's too bad "was a bulling remark.I thought it was just feedback.Also that I refused to help her now sure how her saying "I'm so busy "was a request for help.I also was busy doing discharge paperwork and watching telemetry and answering the phone.Was I a bully?

If you got fired for that then there has to be something else going on? Is this a new job? Just doesn't make sense to me

floridaRN38 · Jul 5, 2016

New-ish manager not meshing with a 40 year employee? Maybe you were being groomed for termination, but telling your new boss that they are stupid is a sure way to help that along.
As a charge myself, any staff coming to me and saying "I'm so busy" is clear *nurse-speak* asking for help.
Edit: Also, a more helpful way to close that remark about staff returning for work soon would be to add that if said help doesn't show up soon, you'll provide fall-back help.

Exactly my thoughts. I just finally read the post of "40 years as an employee " I have seen many people terminated for the smallest things due to their age

Been there,done that, ASN, RN · Jul 5, 2016

I don't really understand the situation being described. But having worked in business and HR before becoming a nurse, I know that creating a hostile work environment after being repeatedly counseled is grounds for termination. I suspect there might have been more going on considering you are saying you were already on their radar for something that led to suspension. Usually, there is a process that goes something like Verbal Warning, Written Warning, Suspension, Termination. I am assuming that if someone is up to suspension and then fired, they have been counseled on whatever their actions have been and with no change and another occurrence comes termination.
Just a side note, when a nurse is drowning and needs help their lifeline is their charge nurse. I know when my charge is having a hard day and she gives me a little attitude when I need help. But being downright turned down for help... that is just unacceptable practice and deplorable leadership.

I was a charge nurse for 20 years and received a leadership award from a huge health system.

Just a side note.. when the charge nurse is "busy doing discharge paperwork and watching telemetry and answering the phone ".. what exactly.. could snowflake expect mother charge nurse to do?

OP acknowledged snowflake's statement, informed her she would direct help from the returning crew. Snowflake did not say she was drowning... she said she was busy. Aren't we all? Any time I was assigned to monitor telemetry.. I could NOT leave the monitors.

OP is not guilty of "unacceptable practice and deplorable leadership". OP was dealing.

macawake, MSN · Jul 5, 2016

A RN comes up to me and says I' m so busy.I looked up from the discharge paper I was working on and said "that's too bad you are so busy , staff should be returning from lunch soon".

So I'm being told saying "that's too bad "was a bulling remark.I thought it was just feedback.Also that I refused to help her now sure how her saying "I'm so busy "was a request for help.

As much as I personally detest this passive, indirect, beating around the bush style of communication I think that it should have been clear to you that the RN was drowning and was indeed asking you, her charge nurse, for help. Did you honestly believe that she wasted precious time simply to give you feedback/an update, but didn't hope you'd offer a solution/helping hand?

I don't know that you're a bully, but I do think that a leader attuned to the needs of his or her staff would have recognized that this was a (albeit in a roundabout manner) plea for assistance.

I don't know if you've included all the pertinent facts in your posts. I think that it's a bit odd that you were fired given the details that you've provided. I guess either it's personal and your nurse manager has it in for you and used this incident to take action, or there is more to the story that you've omitted to share. If there isn't more to the story than what you've shared, then I think that the measures taken against you were drastic, especially considering your standing as a long-time employee.

NotYourMamasRN · Jul 5, 2016

I was a charge nurse for 20 years and received a leadership award from a huge health system.
Just a side note.. when the charge nurse is "busy doing discharge paperwork and watching telemetry and answering the phone ".. what exactly.. could snowflake expect mother charge nurse to do?
OP acknowledged snowflake's statement, informed her she would direct help from the returning crew. Snowflake did not say she was drowning... she said she was busy. Aren't we all? Any time I was assigned to monitor telemetry.. I could NOT leave the monitors.
OP is not guilty of "unacceptable practice and deplorable leadership". OP was dealing.

I disagree and think that there is a lot more to the situation than what is being described for the situation to result in termination. I also think that your reference of "snowflake" for the nurse who was asking for help is a reflection of the consistent issues plaguing professional practice.

Anyone can win an award and time in service in any one job does not necessarily make you a subject matter expert. There is quit a bit of litigation against nurses who had a wealth of experience but made poor decisions. So while I respect any nurse achieving a high status, getting a higher level degree, or receiving awards, I don't see the merit in mentioning that in this discussion.

A foundation of leadership is communication style, even when under pressure. When I served in the military during OIF I can recall a time when a JDAM fell off of one of our jets, this is live ordinance, and landed on the hand of one of the guys in my command. This became a live ordinance issue on-board a flight deck that could have killed 5,000 of us on the ship and there was someone with their hand stuck under it. The Chief who was up there was trying to coordinate getting the hand of his man out from under a bomb, a possibly deadly situation for everyone standing there. One of the new guys in the command came up to him during this event and asked a totally erroneous question about a jet on the other side of the flight deck and that Chief answered him and gave him guidance, then got back to the situation at hand (No pun intended). The new E2 mentioned this when we did a safety stand down and talked about the fact that the Chief who was dealing with such a dangerous situation was able to give him direction and not bite his head off for not realizing the severity of what he was dealing with. This was part of what earned that Chief a NAM which is a level of recognition in the Navy and Marine Corps.

The reason I bring up that story is because I think that more transformational leadership is needed in nursing. I think that how leaders communicate to their people, how they read their people, and how they help their people is a reflection of their leadership abilities. I think that as the leader, the charge nurse is responsible for asking inquisitive questions like, "Are you ok?", "Do you need help?", etc. I think that if this charge had asked those questions and noted what was most likely a look of depravity on the nurse, rather than just writing her off the situation might have gone differently. Isn't that what we do a nurses all day? We walk into a room, we see a patient and can tell something isn't right, we ask questions, we take note of subjective findings, then we take action. I find it incredibly hard to believe that a nurse would be fired for simply the situation as is described.

"Wisdom is assumed to be intrinsically associated with age and experience [but] age is not necessarily a factor in being a wise nurse. Wisdom is assumed to be intrinsically associated with age and experience. Although older people have more experiences, age is not the only characteristic associated with wisdom. Pasupathi (2001) has posited that those who are "open to new experiences, are creative, who think about the how and why of an event rather than simply whether it is good or bad, who demonstrate more social intelligence, or who are oriented towards personal growth display higher levels of wisdom-related knowledge and judgment" (p. 403). This is important for nursing because it means that age is not necessarily a factor in being a wise nurse."

Wake88, BSN, RN · Jul 6, 2016

Feeling like we need a hell of a lot more information.

Charge nurses don't just get fired for 'that's too bad.'

roser13, ASN, RN · Jul 6, 2016

Exactly my thoughts. I just finally read the post of "40 years as an employee " I have seen many people terminated for the smallest things due to their age

Perhaps age, perhaps not. Given OP's posts, substitute attitude for age.

FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN · Jul 6, 2016

OP,

Depending on tone, body language, intent and context what you described might have been rude or dismissive on your part or it may have been you just telling it like it is. i can't tell. But I can tell that it definitely wasn't bullying.

Not all unpleasant interactions are bullying.

Been there,done that, ASN, RN · Jul 6, 2016

I disagree and think that there is a lot more to the situation than what is being described for the situation to result in termination. I also think that your reference of "snowflake" for the nurse who was asking for help is a reflection of the consistent issues plaguing professional practice.
Anyone can win an award and time in service in any one job does not necessarily make you a subject matter expert. There is quit a bit of litigation against nurses who had a wealth of experience but made poor decisions. So while I respect any nurse achieving a high status, getting a higher level degree, or receiving awards, I don't see the merit in mentioning that in this discussion.
A foundation of leadership is communication style, even when under pressure. When I served in the military during OIF I can recall a time when a JDAM fell off of one of our jets, this is live ordinance, and landed on the hand of one of the guys in my command. This became a live ordinance issue on-board a flight deck that could have killed 5,000 of us on the ship and there was someone with their hand stuck under it. The Chief who was up there was trying to coordinate getting the hand of his man out from under a bomb, a possibly deadly situation for everyone standing there. One of the new guys in the command came up to him during this event and asked a totally erroneous question about a jet on the other side of the flight deck and that Chief answered him and gave him guidance, then got back to the situation at hand (No pun intended). The new E2 mentioned this when we did a safety stand down and talked about the fact that the Chief who was dealing with such a dangerous situation was able to give him direction and not bite his head off for not realizing the severity of what he was dealing with. This was part of what earned that Chief a NAM which is a level of recognition in the Navy and Marine Corps.
The reason I bring up that story is because I think that more transformational leadership is needed in nursing. I think that how leaders communicate to their people, how they read their people, and how they help their people is a reflection of their leadership abilities. I think that as the leader, the charge nurse is responsible for asking inquisitive questions like, "Are you ok?", "Do you need help?", etc. I think that if this charge had asked those questions and noted what was most likely a look of depravity on the nurse, rather than just writing her off the situation might have gone differently. Isn't that what we do a nurses all day? We walk into a room, we see a patient and can tell something isn't right, we ask questions, we take note of subjective findings, then we take action. I find it incredibly hard to believe that a nurse would be fired for simply the situation as is described.
"Wisdom is assumed to be intrinsically associated with age and experience [but] age is not necessarily a factor in being a wise nurse. Wisdom is assumed to be intrinsically associated with age and experience. Although older people have more experiences, age is not the only characteristic associated with wisdom. Pasupathi (2001) has posited that those who are "open to new experiences, are creative, who think about the how and why of an event rather than simply whether it is good or bad, who demonstrate more social intelligence, or who are oriented towards personal growth display higher levels of wisdom-related knowledge and judgment" (p. 403). This is important for nursing because it means that age is not necessarily a factor in being a wise nurse."

I realize it is difficult for a nurse with 5 years of experience to comprehend the knowledge base and depth of experience a nurse gains over 34 years. In my 20 years of charge nurse duties, on the front lines... I never made a wrong call. I knew when any staff nurse was in trouble, before s/he realized it. I knew the situation on all 30 patients on the unit.. watched them and the staff like a hawk.

If a nurse said to me "I'm so busy".. I would know what s/he was busy with... with or without "inquisitive" questions. I knew what was going on,and supported each and every one when they truly needed leadership.

I find it hilarious that you support your impressions with footnotes... from some article written by someone that has never schlepped the halls of a chaotic step-down unit. I am not old.. but I am wise.

Can we get back to the OP's issue now?

haron54 · Jul 6, 2016

In 20 years this was my first write up about the discharges.I said it was stupid to think the charge nurse could do all the discharges. No verbal warnings . No private conversations.no follow up for the write up in Feb. I was told not to file a grievance in Feb by HR. The grievance process is a joke.I send my grievance to the same person who wrote me up. No there is nothing in policy regarding coming into the hospital . I am a RN.

dishes, BSN, RN · Jul 6, 2016

I think if everyone involved had accepted responsibility for their own communication, haron might not have been treated as a disposable employee.