What's REALLY with the hospitals using Magnet as a cover for wanting BSN only nurses? - pg.9 | allnurses

What's REALLY with the hospitals using Magnet as a cover for wanting BSN only nurses? - page 9

I'm in an associate degree RN program. I have a previous BA in Psychology and just finished up my last two classes online to also get my BS in Business Administration. I have worked for over a year... Read More

  1. Visit  SummitRN profile page
    4
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    So why the sudden push for the BSN? This may give us clue200 college and university campuses have closed during the last 10 years due to decreasing enrollments as baby boomers aged" (Nursing Spectrum, Jan. 9, 2012).
    You are implying that they are pushing for BSNs to keep schools from closing. That is misleading AND illogical. 200 have closed, but many have opened and enrollment is way up over that time peripod. "Between 2000 and 2010, [college] enrollment increased 37 percent, from 15.3 million to 21.0 million." (Fast Facts)

    I also researched the IOM and found that just about every one of its officials and representatives are also affiliated with four year schools.
    So you are saying... that researchers... are affiliated... with research institutions... STOP THE PRESSES! IT'S A CONSPIRACY!

    Many hospitals in the area are telling their most experienced nurses ... that they must now earn BSNs. Many of these nurses realize that to go into debt for $20,000-$30,000
    Anyone who pays that for a BSN completion is not shopping around, plus they are probably eligable for aid assuming the employer isn't paying for their degree anyway.

    Also, an RN with a Bachelor's Degree in another area should be given the same hiring consideration as someone with a BSN. To not do so would be the most narrow-minded, short-sighted thing I've ever heard of.

    Peter Lee, B.A., RN
    THis is a truly objective, unemotional statement from an unbiased authority with no dog in the fight.
    TiffyRN, Miiki, llg, and 1 other like this.
  2. Visit  hiddencatRN profile page
    3
    Quote from SummitAP
    So you are saying... that researchers... are affiliated... with research institutions... STOP THE PRESSES! IT'S A CONSPIRACY!
    They're actually most likely affiliated with major universities that offer WELL BEYOND the basic 4 year degrees and that offer masters and doctoral degrees. Small colleges that focus on undergraduate degrees only usually don't have major research centers, as research often relies on graduate student assistants.
    redhead_NURSE98!, Esme12, and SummitRN like this.
  3. Visit  avengingspirit1 profile page
    3
    I'm not implying anything. I'm stating that higher education is big business and is rapidly becoming a big racket with all the degree inflation that goes on. All nurses whether they graduate from a Diploma, Associates or Bachelor’s Program must complete the same coursework from an accredited program in order to sit for the state licensing exam. Why does it bother these so-called nursing leaders so much that many nurses graduated from Diploma and Associates programs? And why should they care as long as a nurse is skilled, competent and maintains their license by completing the state mandated continuing education units?

    Just about all of the so-called experts who support requiring nurses to obtain a BSN are backed by the AACN (American Association of Colleges of Nursing); an organization which is committed to BSN entry into nursing or in some other way are affiliated with a four year college or university.


    Obviously, there must be something going on with nursing school enrollments at 4 year schools. If enrollments drop, it means less funding, less staff needed and academic elitists who haven't touched a real patient in 15 yrs or more are probably worried that they may actually have to go back into the real working world.

    So once again, I'll ask; If it's not about money, why won't they let nurses earn BSNs the same way they earn CEUs such as studying articles in Nursing Spectrum and Advance then taking the competency tests.

    I've read your other posts and know you must work in academia. So please be honest with the readers and tell us what 4 year college or university you work with.
    Szasz_is_Right, brandy1017, and Esme12 like this.
  4. Visit  hiddencatRN profile page
    1
    "Obviously, there must be something going on with nursing school enrollments at 4 year schools."

    Obviously based on objective data or obviously based on your deductions? Because that's not an "obvious" conclusion for me based on both personal experience (getting in to nursing school was COMPETITIVE and there was no shortage of applicants for schools I applied to to choose from) and looking at enrollment trend data like what SummitAP posted.
    Last edit by hiddencatRN on Feb 14, '13 : Reason: paragraphs
    SummitRN likes this.
  5. Visit  avengingspirit1 profile page
    3
    As one nurse who wishes to remain anonymous put it; "Nothing more than a money making scheme for the ANA, hospitals pay the ANA thousands of dollars for a fake seal of approval." (Jan.16, 2009, Nursingjobs.org.). When the evaluators come, many nurses have said that hospitals make sure only to have nurses working that fit a certain profile. They have also said that patient to nurse ratios are lowered and once evaluators leave and Magnet Status is achieved, hospitals revert back to unsafe staffing and excluding nurses from decision making. While some hospitals do try to provide superior patient care, each should be judged by its own merits and not a paid-for recognition. For the most part, many nurses believe Magnet Status is meant to manipulate the uninformed general public into feeling better about one hospital versus another and that no better care is provided than at any other hospital. What's more is that To attain Magnet Status, Many hospitals say they will only hire BSN nurses. Hospitals then try to sell the general public on the idea that they will receive better care at that hospital much like the "New and Improved" marketing schemes of the 70s. Another big reason for the BSN and Magnet Status push: Hospitals receive a large stipend from the federal government for reaching and maintaining magnet status (Nicmousseau,Nurse.com, Dec. 12, 2012).

    Bottom line: Magnet Status is merely a marketing tactic. Hospital management and so-called nursing leaders know this. They also know most nurses know it. They're just hoping they won't talk about it.
    Szasz_is_Right, RoseRyan, and Esme12 like this.
  6. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    1
    Just wanted to say not every BSN program is locked in an arms race to increase enrollments and or graduates.

    The famed Hunter-Bellevue program here in NYC has revised both their undergrad and ABSN programs effectively reducing class size in half. IIRC where once there was 100 slots for each for a total of 200 there will be as of this fall only 50 undergrad and 50 ABSN slots for a total of 100.

    IMHO this and other changes shows a nursing program that is listening to what the profession/healthcare market is telling them; that is the focus is not on quantity of grads but quality. They could have easily gone the other way and made the case in light of the "nursing shortage" and other factors slots should have been increased. But what is the good of that when new grads of all stripes are having a hard time finding work, a trend not likely to ease that much over the coming years as hospitals reorganise their nursing services.
    hiddencatRN likes this.
  7. Visit  hiddencatRN profile page
    1
    I'm confused. It's an evil conspiracy to bolster flagging BSN enrollment, or Magnet designation is a marketing tactic for hospitals?
    SummitRN likes this.
  8. Visit  SummitRN profile page
    2
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    All nurses whether they graduate from a Diploma, Associates or Bachelor’s Program must complete the same coursework from an accredited program in order to sit for the state licensing exam. Why does it bother these so-called nursing leaders so much that many nurses graduated from Diploma and Associates programs?
    You are projecting emotional motives upon these groups that are merely trying to advance the profession. Flipping it around a bit, why does the idea of advancing the profession bother you so much? Just ask EMS how that is working out for them...

    Just about all of the so-called experts who support requiring nurses to obtain a BSN are backed by the AACN (American Association of Colleges of Nursing); an organization which is committed to BSN entry into nursing or in some other way are affiliated with a four year college or university.
    So you are saying... many educators and researchers who support higher education... follow their beliefs by associating themselves with research universities and 4 year colleges... YOU ARE ON A ROLL! KEEP IT UP!

    Obviously, there must be something going on with nursing school enrollments at 4 year schools.
    Around here, many new BSN programs have opened in the last decade and they are having no trouble filling their rosters (they are ridiculously competitive to enter). Nationwide, the percentage of new grad BSNs is on the constant increase. Diploma programs have all but disappeared, shrinking to a mere 4% of RN programs as of 2008. In 2008, 49% of working RNs had acquired a BSN, nursing related bachelors, or graduate nursing degree. 13.2% of RNs had a graduate degree in nursing or a related field. Those numbers are higher now. http://www.thefutureofnursing.org/si...Population.pdf

    If enrollments drop, it means less funding, less staff needed and academic elitists who haven't touched a real patient in 15 yrs or more are probably worried that they may actually have to go back into the real working world.
    Another sparkling unemotional revelation from an unbiased presenter…

    So once again, I'll ask; If it's not about money, why won't they let nurses earn BSNs the same way they earn CEUs such as studying articles in Nursing Spectrum and Advance then taking the competency tests.
    Can you name any health profession in which degrees are granted like that? Perhaps we can award DNP degrees the same way? The expression, “in the bottom of a box of Crackerjacks” comes readily to mind! If you think that higher education is just about filling out some open-book multiple-choice tests in the back of a journal, you should reflect more deeply on your BA program.

    I've read your other posts and know you must work in academia. So please be honest with the readers and tell us what 4 year college or university you work with.
    Only those who are in on the conspiracy are people with something to gain from academic employment could possibly support and defend additional education? Sorry to disappoint you, but I teach for a TWO year college (and not in nursing).
    Last edit by SummitRN on Feb 14, '13 : Reason: Fixed a number
    llg and hiddencatRN like this.
  9. Visit  Esme12 profile page
    2
    Quote from hiddencatRN
    I'm confused. It's an evil conspiracy to bolster flagging BSN enrollment, or Magnet designation is a marketing tactic for hospitals?
    Well...it's both. It is NOT an "evil conspiracy".....however....... Ask most nurses at a Magnet hospital if Magnet status has improved their working conditions at the bedside....or really improved their over all communication/collaboration with management/administration? Has it improved their working condition's? Decreased patient load? Reduced mandatory OT?

    The answer would be.....for most facilities....a resounding NO!

    BSN in 10 and Magnet are supported by the very same group that supports them....the consistently tout the recommendations of one study (Aiken) which was sponsored by the same people who recommend the study....a vicious circle of self promotion for the bottom dollar. Money......and the ANA.

    If they were looking to "improve care" and improve nurses it wouldn't cost thousand of dollars for this blessing...which essentially is nothing but bragging rights. Which also applies to The Joint Commission.....large fees are paid for consultants and surveyors....but they are a private company that got the government backing so hospitals HAVE to have them for accreditation. Their are other "approved" bodies that do accreditation but they are by far not the "desired" recommendation by the government. Having Magnet is also trying to join that gravy train as well.

    Unfortunately...it is all about the money.

    An ADN nurse can be hired and work at a Magnet facility. If the ADN is so inferior of an education why then if you already have a Bachelors in something else does your BSN only take 2 years? Is the two years they go to school THAT different than other 2 year nursing curriculum? This, for me, is proof that the entry 4 year degree is a 2 year program RN with academic fluff.

    For me......I want the nursing profession to decide on one entry of education because after 34 years I am being driven slowly insane by this relentless, repetitive discussion.
    Last edit by Esme12 on Feb 14, '13
    Szasz_is_Right and RoseRyan like this.
  10. Visit  avengingspirit1 profile page
    1
    Those who've followed my posts on this and other sites as well as the local media are well aware that I always preface this subject by say that I thinks it's great if nurses choose to further their education and there's nothing wrong with encouraging nurses to do so. But telling nurses they must earn a BSN in 3 years under a veiled threat of termination if they don't is not encouragement.

    As far as the way I suggested nurses should be allowed to earn a BSN by reading articles and taking competency tests, most of these RN-BSN programs; especially those online are not worth anything more. In looking the curriculum of RN-BSN programs, I found they consist of courses such as: Professional Ethics, Leadership in Nursing, Research Methods and Currents Issues in Nursing. All of these courses are incorporated in some way in every accredited nursing program and to have to pay thousands of dollars to have to take them in a BSN program especially since they have nothing to do with improved patient care is a sham. Also, there is no extra hands-on or clinical training in just about all RN-BSN programs.

    I'm not Oliver Stone and am not talking about any evil conspiracy. What I am saying is that those driving the BSN push have something to gain by forcing nurses to have to run back to school. Here's another good example. Many hospitals that now require nurses to obtian BSNs rent or lease space to colleges and universities that offer on-site BSN programs. What better way to ensure all those seats are filled and keep that rent money coming in than for a hospital to require its nurses to obtain BSNs. It is naive to believe hospitals are not thinking like this.

    I'll be honest. I do have personal feelings about this subject. I like many other other nurses graduated from an ADN program. I went 3 years straight through the summers with the last 2 weeks of August off. I already had a Bachelor's Degree in Business and felt that a diploma program was right for me since I wanted to be a nurse and did not need another Bachelor's Degree. I compared the curriculum of my school to the coursework in BSN programs and found that it was the same amount of coursework. We had to do many research papers and make many presentations. But because my school was not inside four walls called Joe Shmoe's University, it could only be accredited as a diploma program even though the amount of work was the same as that in a BSN program. Just about all doctors and nurses say the ability to think critically in nursing situations come from experience and not whether one has a diploma, Associates or Bachelor’s Degree

    I just think it's pathetic when the type of program one graduated from becomes more important than actually knowing how to do something. I get my information by talking to real current working nurses and not the pro-BSN propaganda put out by the ANCC, IOM or AACN. So telling nurse who have 20+ yrs of experience along with specialty certifications that demonstrate proficiency and excellence in areas such as trauma and ICU and who also have called upon to mentor new nurses that they must now obtain a BSN is ludicrous. These nurses tend to make the best leaders and managers because through experience they've learned how to best utilize limited resources to provide optimal patient care.

    The profession can best be advanced by having nurses stop all the in-fighting and schoolgirl bickering. All nurses no matter what type of program they graduated from should be given the same consideration because in the end, they've really done the same coursework. Furthering one's college credentials education should be encouraged and should be a choice. Not mandated by those who will benefit from forcing nurses to go back to school.
    Szasz_is_Right likes this.
  11. Visit  avengingspirit1 profile page
    0
    Gee, what a surprise. Someone else in academia expounding the virtues of why experienced, specialty certified nurses should have to run back to school. You may work for a two year college and not directly teach in a nursing program but I sense an affiliation in some way either directly or indirectly with a four year college or university or possibly a nurse's association. Many if not most two year schools have an articulation arrangement with four year schools and teachers are told to direct students to those schools.

    I'll clue you in. I too worked in education for a while. I earned a Business Degree with a minor in the Social Sciences and taught for a while. Would it surprise people to know that four year colleges and universities give money to local high schools and teachers are told to tell their students that they will be homeless unless they earn a four year degree? It shouldn't, because in fact that is what goes on in the Philadelphia, PA area.

    So do I believe that nursing academic elitists are looking to protect their own interests buy wanting to force nurses to have to run back to school for BSNs and higher degrees? Absolutely. How do I know? Because I was told by someone in academia. Yes, one of their own who, under anonymity, spilled the beans.

    So let's just save all the phony altruism about how having nurses run back to school is to elevate the profession and is for the good of patients for the impressionable 18 and 19 year old students. But I don't even believe they're naive enough to believe it.

    But enough of this. I already contacted the governor's office as well as the local media with a nurse's perspective on why it would be detrimental to force our most experienced, skilled nurses to have to run back to school. I also told them why patients may want to avoid hospitals that are requiring nurses to run back to school. I've already been getting reports from nurses about some of the new BSN nurses who can't even give rationales for basic nursing procedures. I've also contacted the governor's of New York and New Jersey. A TV station expressed interest and asked me if more nurse would be willing to speak out.

    Unless they back off the BSN and Magnet Status pushes, I'm going to expose them for the shams they are.
  12. Visit  hiddencatRN profile page
    2
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    So do I believe that nursing academic elitists are looking to protect their own interests buy wanting to force nurses to have to run back to school for BSNs and higher degrees? Absolutely. How do I know? Because I was told by someone in academia. Yes, one of their own who, under anonymity, spilled the beans.
    I *KNEW* there was a mole in our midst at the last meeting about taking over the nursing world. I'm putting my best agents on finding out who it is.

    To be real a moment though, I lived in Philly for several years and I am thrilled to find out that colleges are devoting resources to encouraging more Philadelphia high schoolers to go to college. Good on them.
    SummitRN and wooh like this.
  13. Visit  avengingspirit1 profile page
    1
    Yeah, by paying off high schools to have them lie to kids.
    Szasz_is_Right likes this.


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