What's REALLY with the hospitals using Magnet as a cover for wanting BSN only nurses?

avengingspirit1 · Feb 15, 2013

Quote from subee:

"In my state teachers must have a Master's and are given many years to do so."
While I know that degree inflation goes on in every discipline to try to elevate professions to almost doctor-like status, and I have many acquaintances in education who know it's all about the money and speak up about it, I am not as familiar with the educational requirements and curriculum for teachers as I am with nursing; especially since they can differ from state to state. So I will not comment about it. I can say for sure that as far as nursing goes, the ability to think critically in clinical situations comes from experience and from working with nurses with many years of clinical experience who are willing to mentor. These nurses are usually in their 40s and 50s and are the ones who will leave the profession if they are forced to obtain a bogus RN-BSN degree.
Read what nurses are saying in this forum about looking for the cheapest way to get a BSN. Is having nurses look for the cheapest way to buy a piece of paper that says BSN advancing the profession? And SummitRN criticized my notion of having nurses acquire BSNs in a way similar to how they earn CEUs; "Can you name any health profession in which degrees are granted like that?"
Once again, those in academia won't recognize that there are other ways to advance one's knowledge out side of paying exorbitant amounts of money to sit inside four walls called XYZ University. As one professor put it; "College degrees are bloated with so much useless nonsense to pad the tuition bill that it's pathetic." Newsweek and other national publications have published articles in an effort to make the public aware of this.
As far as nursing goes; I'm sure a critical care patient will be reassured to know that their attending BSN nurse wrote a couple of papers in APA format on Ancient Egyptian Pottery Making and Sanskrit.

llg, PhD, RN · Feb 15, 2013

You can howl in the wind about it all you want to, avengingspirit1 ... but until you can produce research-based evidence that higher education is NOT a good thing for nurses, you won't be taken seriously by those making the key decisions.

Whether or not you really WANT to be taken seriously by people with influence is a legitimate question. Some people care passionately about an issue and are willing to do what is necessary to see it through. Other people just like to whine about things. Which type are you? I really don't know. But if you really want to effect change ... DO THE RESEARCH necessary to prove your point. At this point, the research/data/evidence is weighted against you. Until you produce the research, you are just another complainer with a personal axe to grind.

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Feb 15, 2013

Why should nurses have lesser educational requirements than teachers, an office worker, etc. Radiation technologists and respiratory therapists are transitioning to bachelors entry. People are going to wonder why nurses are paid more than these people with less educational credentials. You might not like it, but that is our world.

Ultimately, there is a glut of nurses, particularly new nurses. The market wants BSNs. The market will get what it wants, particularly when demand is low and supply is high. If you have an oversupply and fail to leverage problem into an opportunity by progressing standards, then wages WILL FALL (and they have). That is simple economics. You don’t have to like it; it is what it is.

OT/PT/Pharm and more upped their educational minimums. Look what it has done for those professions.

I came to nursing from EMS. The reason I came to nursing is because EMS is a stagnant vocation in the USA. In EMS, the top level provider, paramedic, has in some areas a minimum of 600 hours of vocational training and a GED. Why require an associates degree? They take the same NREMT-P exam as the vo-techs! Who needs that college learning? However, these same folks will complain about their low wages and limited scopes. They also have a major problem where EMS educators usually don’t have a degree or have equal education to the level they are teaching and there is a whole lot of issues with teaching the latest EBP because they teach “the way I’ve always done it and was taught.” EMS is paid dirt, when it is paid. and is usually a short term stint or a stepping stone in the US.

In other countries like Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, there is a university educational requirement for EMS and it is a well paid professionally respected career similar to nursing with a broad scope. In the US, there is resistance to professional progression. Particularly, an EMS argument against an associates minimum is that the paramedic portion of an AS degree takes the same amount of time as a vocational program! Some of them do understand that with a broader body of knowledge coming into a paramedic course with college A&P and other prereqs. We hear similar criticism about the nursing portion of US BSN programs having a similar length to ADN programs. No doubt! I do agree with the criticism of some BSN fluff courses. IMHO, there is a lot of fluff in nursing in general, at whatever level, compared to say engineering. I find most “nursing theory” to be mental masturbation. NANDA is a joke to me. IMHO, nursing would be more respected if we cut out the fluff and put in more stats, patho, and longer clinicals. In other countries, like Canada, bachelors is the minimum for nursing!

I don’t really know much about RN->BSN courses, but I do know that if you have a bachelors, you can probably get your BSN with a year of part time school because you have the liberal arts education out of the way. I do know that some of the better BSN completion programs teach upper division healthcare ethics, EBP, patho/research/best-practice updates, community health with clinical, and other worthwhile courses. I see leadership courses... which can be a good thing... I think it stinks if an employer gives a 3 years, BSN or termination, without tuition assistance. That is crummy. However, that is where the market is at. If they give tuition support, nobody should complain about professional development.

But, since I teach non-transferrable outdoor classes at a junior college, I'm apparently part of the conspiracy... so I will now yield the floor to more paranoia, appeals to anonymous authority, circumstance ad hominem, guilt by association, sweeping generalizations, and other textbook examples of rhetological fallacies.

avengingspirit1 · Feb 16, 2013

People I have spoken to who work have already admitted it's all about money. You don't need a government funded panel to research what is already admitted to. As far as PT/OT/Pharm go, they all wanted to raise their status to being almost doctor-like. I remember when Hahnemann University in Phila. first changed their program from an entry-level master's to a doctorate. It was still 3 years but instead of a master's, they graduated with a doctorate. As a result, students now had to pay for a doctorate with the same amount of coursework as the master's. I personally know a recent Pharm grad here in Philly when was told she had to stay another year because they now added a year to her program. She had to spend another year taking art courses; nothing in Pharm. So when she graduated, instead of her tuition bill being $148,000, it was now over $200,000. The PT/OT/Pharm students never fought it. I will try to prevent this from happening in nursing.

"Ultimately, there is a glut of nurses, particularly new nurses. The market wants BSNs. The market will get what it wants, particularly when demand is low and supply is high. If you have an oversupply and fail to leverage problem into an opportunity by progressing standards, then wages WILL FALL (and they have). That is simple economics. You don’t have to like it; it is what it is.'

I agree with you on all of the above. Right now there is a glut of nurses and demand is lower. But perception is what drives the market. During the first Iraqi war, the stock market here in the U.S. soared every time we had a successful bombing raid. You like to use the word "conspiracy" a lot. All I'm saying is that academic elitists as well as four year schools are taking advantage of the current market situation to push their agenda. As a business person, nothing wrong with this. As a nurse however, I have problem with trying alter the perception of the general public, who may be uninformed about nursing education, by trumpeting 1 study which has been shown to be flawed almost as soon as it came out. And to try to push their their agenda under the guise of it being for the good of the patients makes me sick. I though nurses were above that. That is why I've contacted the media and will let the public know what the BSN and Magnet status pushes are all about.

Than after having all the information, not just that coming from academic elitists, let the public decide what they want. But they must be given all the information, not just one side.

"I find most “nursing theory” to be mental masturbation. NANDA is a joke to me. IMHO, nursing would be more respected if we cut out the fluff and put in more stats, patho, and longer clinicals. In other countries, like Canada, bachelors is the minimum for nursing!"

I agree with you here also. I f there was anything in RN-BSN programs that help me be a better nurse, they would have me at hello. I am now 50 and graduated 8 years ago. As I said before, I already had a business degree and did graduate work in education. I've also been a certified fitness trainer for over 20 years. I was going to teach but felt nursing was a great way to combine my love of teaching as well as health and fitness to help people prevent illness and stay healthy. So now to be told by employers after a few years of working as nurse that I need to earn a BSN when I've already completed over and above the coursework in a BSN program, I find ludicrous.

For me now, the purpose of education is; teach me something I don't already know and teach me something I can use. I'm just not seeing this in RN-BSN programs."I think it stinks if an employer gives a 3 years, BSN or termination, without tuition assistance. That is crummy. However, that is where the market is at. If they give tuition support, nobody should complain about professional development."

I agree with you here also. 2 problems in this Philly area though. If nurse's can't get the job in the first place, then tuition aid is mute. Also most emp0loyers in this area barely cover enough to pay for the books. All the nurses I know have been told by their employers that they must earn a BSN to stay employed but must pay for at least 90% of it themselves.

Again once the general public has all the facts, we'll let them decide. However to give them the perception that they will receive better care just because a hospital has more BSN staff or has paid the ANA for magnet recognition is wrong.

You may not believe this but after reading your last post; and although we may still agree to disagree on somethings , you've earned my respect. I may have been wrong about why you take the stand you do on this topic and I'm man enough to admit that.

RoseRyan · Feb 16, 2013

I started off with an ADN in May 09..did not find a job in an acute care facility till April 10, and I moved across the country for it. I immediately got my BSN before I started working. I have found that by advancing my degree, I am respecting the nursing profession and upholding the standards that should be held in the practice. I think it should be an immediate requirement that we continue on towards a bachelors program after graduating. This higher degree, continuously striving towards being higher educated, helps build more respect from patients... notice how differently we get talked to, compared to the pharmacist, PT/OT member?
This could seriously change if the nursing profession held at the same educational standard as other disciplines. I don't know how many times I've heard from patients about "my two year degree" negative and positive feedback, until I explain to them No actually I have a four year degree and honestly, it changes. MD respect changes, it's a whole different ball game. And I found all the evidenced based nursing research classes amazing and it really creates a different light on nursing.
In edition, speaking of magnet status. I live on the west coast so... yes things run different out here but, I have work in both facilities...and I would never leave my magnet hospital. The respect, support, and everything else in a hand basket far surpasses what I have experienced in a 400 bed community non-magnet hospital that has poor/no nursing profession support and respect. I understand that is may not be everywhere but, just my two cents.
It's all about supporting the profession, patients, and receiving the respect that we deserve for a constant ever-changing and demanding line of work.

I can only speak for myself, but I dont go around advertising what degree I have to doctors or patients. It's no one else business except for myself and my hiring manager. For all they know I have a doctorate in nursing. All they need to be concerned with is those 2 bold, red letters on my name tag. RN

Just my 2 cents

RoseRyan · Feb 16, 2013

Yes! I prefer to have financial and professional parity with physical therapists and pharmacists, not surgical technicians and EMT's.

Wow. Just wow. This is extremely offensive

wooh, BSN, RN · Feb 16, 2013

Wow. Just wow. This is extremely offensive

How is it offensive? Do you prefer to be on par with people making less money, who have less autonomy and get less respect?

llg, PhD, RN · Feb 16, 2013

Wow. Just wow. This is extremely offensive

Sometimes, the truth hurts. The nursing "profession" is at a crossroads and we need to decide which way to go. Do we want to be seen (and comensated) as being on the same level as our collegues who require higher levels of education? Or do we want to be seen (and compensated) on the same level as those workers whose jobs require less education?

Throughout history, the people with higher education have been the most respected and the best compensated. I'd rather be in that group.

That doesn't mean I have no respect for people with lower levels of education. Most of them are fine people who do a good job ... but that doesn't change the facts of the workplace and the reasons for nursing to continue to develop as a profession.

RoseRyan · Feb 16, 2013

Oh, since you said it that must make it the truth

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Feb 16, 2013

Oh since you said it that must make it the truth[/quote']
Did you have a counterpoint to make in addition to stating how offended you are and indirect statements of disbelief?

avengingspirit1 · Feb 16, 2013

While I do agree with the current economic situation, I have every intention of carrying through what I said I was going to do. That is informing the public about what's really driving the BSN and Magnet Status pushes. And its all about money. A nurse is a nursing professional as long as they passed their licensing exam whether they graduated from a diploma, Associates or Bachelor's. Just like 20 ounces of cereal is still 20 ounces no matter what type of box you package it in. I went three yr program straight through the summers and did the same amount of as any BSN who went four years with summers off. Actually I have much respect for nurses who graduated from associate's programs because it takes much diligence and self-discipline to accomplish all that work in a condensed two year period.

The people that are driving the BSN push are the very ones who stand to benefit by having nurses run back to school. It's like Pepsi Cola producing a study that says those who Pepsi as opposed to other colas tend to be in better health. Let's see how safe people feel when they learn area hospitals area hospitals are hiring non-experienced BSN graduates over nurses with many years of experience. let's see how nurses feel when they learn some of the money they pay in dues to the ANA and their state's nursing associations are being used to bush for BSN mandates as well influence area hospitals to only hire BSN nurses. And as I said once they have most nurses running back for BSNs they start pushing the MSN then the doctorate. So if nurses want to keep paying dues to ensure they'll be running back to school and in debt for the rest of their lives to make the lives of those in academia more cushy, then don't speak up and keep on taking it. But I know most nurses are better than that. And after one or two nurses speak up in protest then more will. As academic elitists try to perpetuate the fallacies of one study to influence area hospitals to only hire BSN nurses, diploma and associates programs will shut down. This will leave prospective students no choice but to attend the much higher priced four year schools.

It's not about elevating the profession, it's about elevating someone's revenue. If a nurse feels they need more initials after their name to be respected then they may not have enough self-respect to begin with and no amount of alphabet letters will make a difference. Respect is earned by being experienced, doing a good job and exuding confidence about it.

What there were allowed to do with PT/OT and Pharmacology was a sham. Higher education has become a business racket just like magnet status is merely a market tactic meant to make the uninformed general public feel better about one hospital verses another.

I have been talking to newspapers and news stations and I will do everything to make the general public aware of what the BSN and Magnet Status pushes are all about. I will also let the public know why they should try to avoid those hospitals that are forcing their nurses to earn BSNs under the threat of termination if they don't. And don't worry nurses. This cycle happens about every 15 years. There is a glut of nurses that will be retiring soon as jobs will once again be plentiful.

Now if academic and hospital management elitists don't like the fact that I will tell it like it is, they don't have to. But that is what is what is and what it will be. And I know they must not like it since they have people trying to discredit me. But that's fine, they're just throwing more logs on the fire and giving me more incentive to move ahead.

If some nurses want to spend the rest of their lives in school earning initials, that's fine. But don't push it on the rest of us because more of us will be pushing back from now on.

Susie2310 · Feb 17, 2013

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