NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 47

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   HealthyRN
    Quote from lindarn
    We have nurses. Ot be exact, 500,000 nurses are not practicing at the bedside. Nursing has become a revolving door job, where the practitiners work 2-3 years, and leave fo greener pastures. Nursing does not have enough power, and control to improve, and fix, what makes bedside nursing and un-attractive career choice.

    Why is this? Because we have multiple entries into practice, and most of us choose the easier path with a plethora of excuses as to why they cannot go the longer/harder route.

    Potential PT, OT, and Pharmacists, I am sure, face the same obstacles to earning/achieving a college degree. I bet there are just as many single parents, individuals who have a myriad of problems, issues, obstacles, to attending college. Yet they all somehow find a way to attend college for not just 1-2 years, but earn, not just a Bachelors Degree, but a Masters, and Doctorate Degree program. And they are actually happy that the educational levels have been raised. They all say, it makes it harder to get accepted into the schools, makes their numbers smaller, and by the law of supply and demand, they are very much in demand, and in control of their profession. And in case you haven't noticed, they ALL MAKE ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSES.

    Making a BSN the entry into practice would accomplish the same thing. When nurses are REALLY IN SHORT SUPPLY, and not in a revolving door situation, nursing will have the control to increase pay, improve benefits, demand respect, and have more satisfaction. Nurses will be taught what their skills, knowledge, and expertise are worth at the bedside, and start to bill for their services. When are services are listed on the patients bill, they will realize what their nursing care is worth. As it stands now, a nurses' professional services are rolled in with the room rate, housekeeping, and the complimentary roll of toilet paper and box of kleenex.

    Less nurses will leave the profession ony 1-2 years after graduation, because they have more invested in their career, and will not be easily be forced to leave because of the conditions that are present now. We don;t need more nurses. We need nurses to be happy and content with their profession, and be willing to hang in for the long haul, instead of jumping ship after less years than we went to school.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    I completely agree with everything you are saying. I respect the fact that not everyone has an easy life and is able to attend a four-year university directly out of high school. However, this is not a valid reason to obstruct the BSN for minimum entry into the profession. Lots of people have a tough life, but still go on to become physicians, engineers, lawyers, etc. Where there is a will, there is a way. I believe that a lot of the problems in the nursing profession would be improved with the BSN for entry, and I hope that I am still practicing when it happens.
  2. by   Tweety
    Quote from poohbear6301
    It figures NY would do something so backward. They arent even considering giving credit for years worked in the field either. As a nurse of 30+ years I would find it a great hardship to have to return to school for two more years of education of what??? How to be a unit manager??? I have no interest or wish to have additoinal instruction in the administrative duties of nursing. I have been a 'hands-on' nurse from the very beginning and don't expect to stop now. If this goes through I forsee the backward state loosing a great number of experienced nurses who will let their license lapse/or inactive rather than be compelled to return to school.
    As someone who is completed a degree from an ADN to BSN, let me please, if you don't mind, squash the myth that going from ADN to BSN is a matter of learning to be an administrator.

    Let me also say I don't see any advantage of forcing nurses such as yourself back to school. I don't see how that is going to help you personally or advance our profession.

    I am not completing my BSN to become any sort of administrator. Initially it was to eventually get away from the bedside and take advantage of BSN-preferred positions such as quality, safety, case management, research (a couple of people I know are in long time research projects and their BSN got them in), or other positions as I age in nursing. As it turns out it probably is going to be a stepping stone to an MSN in Education as I discovered a love of teaching.

    Please note that the following are the courses I've taken/or need to take. Note that only one is management related. Most actually are co-reqs. You can definately argue that the courses are useless to you. I was only adressing the idea that ADN to BSN is only a few management courses.


    Cognate Component (9 credit hours)
    DCHE/CHEM 101* 3 credits Principles of Chemistry
    DSOC 349 3 credits Aging and Society
    DENG 102 3 credits English Composition II
    * Prerequisite
    Nursing Component (37 credit hours)
    DNRS/NRSG 326 3 credits Concepts of Professional Nursing
    DNRS/NRSG 327 4 credits Health Promotion and Assessment
    DNRS/NRSG 328 4 credits Principles of Pathophysiology
    DNRS/NRSG 329 3 credits Pharmocology
    DNRS/NRSG 446 3 credits Community Health Nursing
    DNRS/NRSG 447 3 credits Population-Focused Health Promotion
    DNRS/NRSG 485 3 credits Leadership and Management in Nursing
    DNRS/NRSG 497 3 credits Nursing Research Methods
    DNRS/NRSG 499 3 credits Seminar in Nursing
    *

    General Education Component (20 − 26 credit hours)
    DMAT/MATH 205 3 credits Introduction to Applied Statistics
    DREL/RELT 368 3 credits World Religions
    DREL/REL 379 3 credits Lessons on Living: Biblical Perspectives
    DHIS/HIST 174/175 3 credits World Civilizations I or II
    DHMN/HMNT 3 credits Humanities
    DHPE/HPER 125 2 credits Health and Wellbeing
    Elective
    DCPT/CPTR 105 3 credits Introduction to Microcomputers*
    DENG/ENGL 102 3 credits English Composition**
  3. by   vickim
    why does everything have to be so HARD in new york?!
  4. by   blady
    Quote from cookie102
    this is something that has been going around for many, many years. when i graduated from "diploma" school back in the 70's, the "rumor" was that you were going to have to go to a 4 yr college to become a nurse....yes education empowers us, but education can be obtained in many ways, as i stated once before, it doesn't matter if you go to a diploma school, 2 yr, or 4 yr....unless you pass the boards and have RN after your name, none of the other letters mean anything!! let's support the different roads people choose to take.

    I'm not disagreeing with the path one took to get there. If however, the requirement changes to a higher level, it should be the concensus. After all it's our profession. All professions require certain levels of education.

    Interestingly, the letters behind your name does mean something in all professions.
    Last edit by blady on Feb 13, '07
  5. by   blady
    Quote from vickim
    why does everything have to be so HARD in <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=new%20york" onmouseover="window.status='new york'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">new york</a>?!
    You think so? I found that NY is really a place where everyone can make a living. I did a bit of travel there and I noticed that one may work harder there but one can survival there.
  6. by   cookie102
    back in the early 70's when i graduated from "diploma" school of nursing, boards were given over 2 days (oh my), you got 5 individual scores, if you didn't score 500 of more on each of the sections, you could not get your license transfered (reciprocity) to NY or CA. so this seems like just another thing NY is doing or maybe doing, who knows....i am very happy that i chose to go to "nursing school" and have a diploma, i have done pretty well for myself but can't wait to RETIRE!!!
    Last edit by cookie102 on Feb 13, '07
  7. by   poohbear6301
    Quote from Tweety
    As someone who is completed a degree from an ADN to BSN, let me please, if you don't mind, squash the myth that going from ADN to BSN is a matter of learning to be an administrator.

    Let me also say I don't see any advantage of forcing nurses such as yourself back to school. I don't see how that is going to help you personally or advance our profession.

    I am not completing my BSN to become any sort of administrator. Initially it was to eventually get away from the bedside and take advantage of BSN-preferred positions such as quality, safety, case management, research (a couple of people I know are in long time research projects and their BSN got them in), or other positions as I age in nursing. As it turns out it probably is going to be a stepping stone to an MSN in Education as I discovered a love of teaching.

    Please note that the following are the courses I've taken/or need to take. Note that only one is management related. Most actually are co-reqs. You can definately argue that the courses are useless to you. I was only adressing the idea that ADN to BSN is only a few management courses.


    Cognate Component (9 credit hours)
    DCHE/CHEM 101* 3 credits Principles of Chemistry
    DSOC 349 3 credits Aging and Society
    DENG 102 3 credits English Composition II
    * Prerequisite
    Nursing Component (37 credit hours)
    DNRS/NRSG 326 3 credits Concepts of Professional Nursing
    DNRS/NRSG 327 4 credits Health Promotion and Assessment
    DNRS/NRSG 328 4 credits Principles of Pathophysiology
    DNRS/NRSG 329 3 credits Pharmocology
    DNRS/NRSG 446 3 credits Community Health Nursing
    DNRS/NRSG 447 3 credits Population-Focused Health Promotion
    DNRS/NRSG 485 3 credits Leadership and Management in Nursing
    DNRS/NRSG 497 3 credits Nursing Research Methods
    DNRS/NRSG 499 3 credits Seminar in Nursing
    *

    General Education Component (20 − 26 credit hours)
    DMAT/MATH 205 3 credits Introduction to Applied Statistics
    DREL/RELT 368 3 credits World Religions
    DREL/REL 379 3 credits Lessons on Living: Biblical Perspectives
    DHIS/HIST 174/175 3 credits World Civilizations I or II
    DHMN/HMNT 3 credits Humanities
    DHPE/HPER 125 2 credits Health and Wellbeing
    Elective
    DCPT/CPTR 105 3 credits Introduction to Microcomputers*
    DENG/ENGL 102 3 credits English Composition**
    I have looked into working toward my BSN if for no other reason than to possibly teach new hires to our agency about the trach and vents we commanly use. The problem I've run into is that because my program was just changing over from a "hospital diploma" program to the College program I graduated from. At that time it wasn't accredited yet. Thus for me to go any further in my education I would need to repeat some of my originol classes. That's why I feel so strongly that these legislators who want to change the licensing law, need to give nurses credit for thier experience.
    When I started nursing, WE were respiratory therapy and after the initial vent set up, changed to settings as directed by the doctor. The only thing respiratory thereapy did was set up oxygen. The other thing that has changed alot is central supply. We used to take our bedpans, wash basins, emesis pans... and sterilize them after cleaning in our own autoclave. We even used it to warm bath blankets to help with people just coming back from proceedures. Of course ventilators were the size of a small dresser and the concept of having someone home on a vent was not heard of.
    For someone like myself who have been nursing 30+ years, why not give us a chance to "test out of" some of the requirements for the degree.
    And yes, if the BSN was to help you get into a position away from the bedside, then my originol complaint remains. The BSN (and higher) degree often will take the nurses from the bedside---the exact place we (in NY) are told we need the most nurses. Even when doing
  8. by   subee
    Quote from poohbear6301
    I have looked into working toward my BSN if for no other reason than to possibly teach new hires to our agency about the trach and vents we commanly use. The problem I've run into is that because my program was just changing over from a "hospital diploma" program to the College program I graduated from. At that time it wasn't accredited yet. Thus for me to go any further in my education I would need to repeat some of my originol classes. That's why I feel so strongly that these legislators who want to change the licensing law, need to give nurses credit for thier experience.
    When I started nursing, WE were respiratory therapy and after the initial vent set up, changed to settings as directed by the doctor. The only thing respiratory thereapy did was set up oxygen. The other thing that has changed alot is central supply. We used to take our bedpans, wash basins, emesis pans... and sterilize them after cleaning in our own autoclave. We even used it to warm bath blankets to help with people just coming back from proceedures. Of course ventilators were the size of a small dresser and the concept of having someone home on a vent was not heard of.
    For someone like myself who have been nursing 30+ years, why not give us a chance to "test out of" some of the requirements for the degree.
    And yes, if the BSN was to help you get into a position away from the bedside, then my originol complaint remains. The BSN (and higher) degree often will take the nurses from the bedside---the exact place we (in NY) are told we need the most nurses. Even when doing
    And for the folks who didn't bother to read the entire post - current RNS would be grandfathered - GRANDFATHERED - no one is going to force those of you who can't or won't continue their education to do anything. Programs often allow for people to "test out" for previous experience but the things you'd be tested on would be really hard to review up on by yourself - mostly the sciences. The BSN was not designed to get nurses away from the bedside - I didn't have a single management course in BSN. The main difference was more science requirements, a language requirement and public health rotation. I see none of these as "taking me away from the bedside." If bedside nursing were made more palatable, more BSN's would stay there, but the body and mind can take a limited amount of abuse when other opportunities are opened to you. If I knew that I would never have more than four or five patient a day I'd still be at the bedside - its what I had in mind when I got my BSN.
  9. by   cabela
    I am doing a paper on the subject of some states trying to get rid of ADN programs. I would appreciate any input especially concerning North Dakota, New York and North Carolina, thanks Cabela
  10. by   RNsRWe
    Quote from cabela
    I am doing a paper on the subject of some states trying to get rid of ADN programs. I would appreciate any input especially concerning North Dakota, New York and North Carolina, thanks Cabela
    If you read any of this thread, you should have seen that North Dakota attempted, years ago, to make the minimum entry into nursing a BSN. It failed. Miserably. Also, you'll read in this thread, that New York had some legislative discussions on it, and it too died a miserable death. There IS NOTHING in the works to have BSN a minimum NYS standard.

    I suppose you can always go to the North Carolina State board on this website to ask about NC, but I imagine you'll get similar results.
  11. by   Cat Nurse
    My hospital has just made decided to get rid of LPN's. At first it was if you had 25 yrs experience you were exempt from becoming a RN. Now the units have decided to total get rid of all LPN's, regardless of experience or student status. What I am worried about is the impact of 50 less nurses in our institution. I agree that everyday the work is more geared towards the RN. But, this is a major decision. Many LPN have not been worried about job status and have spent alot of money on things like new house, new cars. They did not get the full statement you may have a job if your current unit decides to keep LPN's.
  12. by   blady
    Quote from zenman
    Now, you know that won't happen till we have one entry level, LOL! In countries that have only one entry level, some of them developing countries, you don't see such arguments. Here, as one poster said, we fight to maintain the minimum standards. We also ask, "what's the incentive to get a BSN?" For myself, the incentive was not to get by with the minimum, but to exceed that. For some strange reason, I found that the sociology courses, etc. and even that management course, better prepared me for the bedside. Really strange.

    A good analogy might be boot camp. It doesn't matter what you come in with, you are going to all have the same basic training and function as a team.
    It doesn't matter what your profession is----you always bring something to the table and you learn everything at the job. But you always need the theory part of your profession which is why there is a requirement.

    "functioning as a team"--wishful thinking. All the more why we should have one entry requirement. Too many times you read threads about who think they know more than whom.
  13. by   little_lost_bear
    Australia too requires new RNs to have a University Degree,,,, you can do EEN which is an endorsed enrolled nurse who can do medications. I was an LPN/LVN with IV certification in America, moved to Australia where i was an EEN but have since upgraded to RN-BSN. Older nurses can still work with being hospital trained. And still there is a shortage here. Same work, increased responsibility, a little better pay. Some say, why bother.

    But becoming an RN was my dream come true. Even at my age.

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