NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 45

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   klondike
    I've been a traveler for twenty one years and will retire at age sixtyfive in five more years. I've traveled all around mainland United States, AK, HI, and USVI. I've been to Asia, Africa, Central and South America. I've SCUBA dived in some magnificent places thanks to the freedom I've enjoyed being a traveler. Sometimes I wish I could take out a full page add in the NY Times thanking all the foolish, short sighted, assanine hospital administrators, politicians and anyone else who has helped to perpetuate the nursing shortage. Unfortunately the shortage is serious and my tongue in cheek approach would not help. Most probably it would offend some of my collegues. Offending the perpertarators of the shortage would be OK with me. I guess I won't be taking out that advertisement in the NY times. I'm beginning to worry about who will take care of me in not too many more years.
  2. by   Bozzie
    I absolutely agree with your "show me the money" statement. In NY they will not give you a raise for getting your BSN and if they do it certainly will not be much. I feel if NY is so hell bent on BSN's then the state should foot the college bill for RNs who are not BSNs. We all know how NY feels about paying the bill for anyone's education don't we? That might just put the brakes on this whole stupid idea. Personally, if this comes to pass, I will either retire early or move out of state. I have 15 more years before retirement and I will be damned if I will rack up a student loan at this point in my life.
  3. by   linzz
    I don't blame you Bozzie, I think sometimes the powers that be forget how difficult it is for nurses to upgrade. For those that do, you have my respect and admiration but not everyone has the opportunity to do this. Just my two cents, that is all. I don't want to offend anyone.
  4. by   lindarn
    Quote from Bozzie
    I absolutely agree with your "show me the money" statement. In NY they will not give you a raise for getting your BSN and if they do it certainly will not be much. I feel if NY is so hell bent on BSN's then the state should foot the college bill for RNs who are not BSNs. We all know how NY feels about paying the bill for anyone's education don't we? That might just put the brakes on this whole stupid idea. Personally, if this comes to pass, I will either retire early or move out of state. I have 15 more years before retirement and I will be damned if I will rack up a student loan at this point in my life.
    There is only one reason that hospitals do not pay nurses more money for BSNs. It is because other nurses who do not have a BSN, regardless of the reason, do not want BSNs to be paid more money. They have yet to figure out that having an all BSN staff, would demand more money, and improve the retention of new grads.

    Tell me, what incentive do new grad BSNs have to stay at bedside nursing when their own non BSN co-workers do not value a four year college degree, and the increased prestige it would bring to the profession, refuse to allow BSNs to earn more money? I tire of hearing about how new grads with BSNs leave bedsie nursing so fast, and that means that a BSN is ony good for nurses who want to go into management. A BSN is perfectly fine for a bedside nurse, but like most people, you want, and deserve a return on your investment, the same reason that doctors insist their inflated paychecks are appropropriate.

    It will never change until nurses include a significant pay increase for a BSN degree in their union contracts, and let go whatever slight you feel about it because you are a ADN or a Diploma grad. A four year college degree as entry into practice would unify us and remove the blue collar tarnish that nursing now possesses. It would be a nincentive for nurse to aspire to earn a BSN. There is no incentive now to do so.

    An indivudual who is responsible for patients' lives should be at least as educated as the individual who exercises patient's legs, and walks them through the hallway. PTs now have a Doctorate as entry into practice, as do Pharmacists. Occupational therapists have a Masters as entry into practice.

    To put things in prospective PHYSICAL THERAPY ASSISTANTS, have an ASSOCIATES DEGREE AND ENTRY INTO PRACTICE. Yet nurses can enter the field of nursing with a two year Associates Degreee, or two-three year Diploma. An LPN/LVN enters with a one year post HS graduate education. All wit far more responsiblity, and accountability. What is wrong with this picture?

    I feel strongly that the ADNs and Diploma grads should be grandfathered in. And that LPN/LVNs should be provided a bridge to earn a BSN. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THERE IS ANYTHING LESS/BAD/WRONG WITH ADNS, AND DIPLOMAS. I was a Diploma grad from NYC in 1975. It took me less that a year to figure out who was on the bottom of the food chain, and it was not the PTs, OTs, Pharmacists, Social Workers. All of these careers at the time (1975), all had a four year college degree as entry into practice. They have all since then increases that to a Masters, and a Doctorate. The hospital had a dipoma program, and that is where most of the nurses came from.

    Even in 1975, they ALL MADE MORE MONEY THAN NURSES. Does anyone else see a connection? When the educational level was increased, no one whined, complained, and sulked. They were all grandfathered in, and the hospitals had on site (paid for by the hospitals, or at least subsized by them), educational programs for the ones who wanted to get the higher degree, even though they did not have to do it for licensure.

    It can be done. Nurses see an obstacle, and rather than come up with a solution, they complain and sulk, and just take it. DEMAND THAT BSNs BE PAID MORE, AND MORE NURSES WOULD GET THE HIGHER DEGREE, and stay at the bedside. This would unify us under one level, and improve our image. IMAGE, by the way, is the main problem in nursing. We do not portray a professional, polished image to the public, to other health care professionals, and administration. JMHO, my NY $0.02.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Last edit by lindarn on Feb 7, '07
  5. by   subee
    Quote from DusktilDawn
    Subee, where I live in Canada there should not be a nursing shortage, EVER. There are more than enough nurses that live in my area that would work in Canada if the job opportunities were available. Hospitals are understaffing to cut costs, at the expense of the nurses (and patients), not because there are not enought nurses to fill vacancies. Canadian nurses are not able to find full-time jobs, that is one of the biggest incentives for many to leave. People are not going to want to get into a profession that has poor job prospects. Hospitals are offering part-time, casual, or temporary positions. They want staff that they can move around to whatever shift they want and at their beck and call. Part-time nurses can wind up working full-time hours without the benefits and the added bonus of jumping from days to afternoons to nights. Self-scheduling isn't an option. Vacations can be turned down at the last minute. No such thing as agency nurses in the hospitals.

    Restructuring/downsizing of hospitals has lead to more people being taken care of in long-term care facilities or at home, where nurses are paid less with inferior benefits as compared to being employed by a hospital. The city I live in went from having 4 hospitals to 2, numerous nurses were laid off because of this restructuring. This same situation also happened elsewhere in Ontario.

    Despite having worked for years (>10) at one facility as an RPN/LPN, I could not get a full-time job as an RN once I was done school, I was offered a temporary position. Generous of them, eh? Only 2 hospitals in this city, oh and they streamlined services, trauma at one, OB/L&D at the other, dialysis at one, NICU/Peds at the other, Pysch at one, oncology at the other, etc. I applied at the other hospital, and they also offered me a temporary position.

    Here is a site from ONA (Ontario Nurses Association)
    http://www.stillnotenoughnurses.ca/
    The equivalent of between 7,000 and 8,600 full-time jobs, Canada-wide, is being performed by nurses working overtime!
    There is almost a perfect correlation between overtime and sick time; additional hours worked are later taken off.
    Over the course of a year, some 16 million nursing hours are lost to injury and illness in Canada, equalling about 9,000 fulltime jobs.

    They neglect to mention how many part-time nurses are working full-time hours, or OT for straight time.

    The latter 1990s saw Community Care Access Centres (CCACs) boost their patronage of for-profit agencies by some 265 per cent as a market-driven system became the rule in homecare provision. The result was not a positive one for health professionals as unionized employers like the Victorian Order of Nurses (VON) were pushed out by firms paying lower salaries. And while the current provincial government has pumped over $100 million into homecare with the objective of boosting staff levels, evidence suggests that the proportion of full-time employment is not improving.

    Dusl to Dawn: Sorry, I didn't get my point across before. It is perfectly understood why nurses don't want to work in Canada. Hospitals do the same thing here..making two part-time positions out of one to avoid benefits. What I'm saying is that enough people are showing up to work that the hospitals can stay open. When they CAN'T stay open then the Economic Force will be with us and hospitals will do what it takes to attract nurses. So as long as the majority of RN's working ANYWHERE remain adamant in their refusal to exercise extreme control over their conditions hospitals will have no reason to change. Being a female profession works more than anything else against us. As long as women drop out to bear and care for the children, they will be less attractive to employers than men. We're treated as subordinates by the powers at the top because we act as subordinates. Also, no hospital administrator has the position because he went to an excellent junior college. They will never look to nurses as their equals until we have equal educations. Yes, a lot of the ADN grads are sophisticated and articulate in representing themselves, but I believe that these are mostly people who came into nursing as a second career. I don't believe that someone who's only 19 or 20 years old right out of a two year degree can possibly appreciate where a 40 year old ADN with a BA in another field and life-experience is coming from. To argue against equal educational requirements for a beleaguered group only proves that they need to hit the books and discover how things work out here. CRNA's decided 20 years ago to make MSN minimum requirement and it only helped them in the long run.
    No one could defend against that position because less education is always INDEFENSIBLE if you want to become a professional and incur the financial liability for schooling and reap the rewards.
  6. by   blady
    Nursing is the only profession that allows one to enter with such minimal education. Some states only offer jobs in nursing homes and the like to ADNs. If you have the experience, a 10 year period is enough time to get your BSN. Knowledge is power. Besides, why not get paid for your expertise. BSN programs provide nurses with a wealth of knowledge, including other disciplines, and these are things a good nurse could always use. Besides, you can only get certain possessions and sit on boards after such. Your degree could determine what kind of nurse you become. As a nurse I come across lots of nurses who could do with a lot more training especially in the social sciences.

    I think NY is on the right track. It has always been a state that is flexible for lots of profession. Maybe that's why they don't have reciprocity with other top states.
  7. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from blady
    Some states only offer jobs in nursing homes and the like to ADNs.
    Name one.

    This above statement just isn't true.

    Also, as has been pointed out, this issue died without a vote in the LAST NY legislature. It was not even considered a viable enough option to entertain debate.

    Quote from blady
    Besides, why not get paid for your expertise.
    As has been pointed out repeatedly, there is no significant income gap between ADN and BSN. It's a nice thought, but it doesn't translate to reality.

    IF there were a real wage difference, this wouldn't be a debate at all. As more nurses gravitated towards that extra pay, both current nurses and potential nurses would make their choices accordingly with the result being that nursing would skew towards BSN on its own.

    Quote from blady
    Besides, you can only get certain possessions and sit on boards after such.
    Most boards of nursing include a range of members, from lay public, other healthcare professionals and a range of qualifications of nurses to include those with ADNs. Indeed, on most boards, there are an equal range of representation across the nursing spectrum: there is no more representation for one group over the others.

    IN addition, most certifications open to BSNs are open to ADNs.

    Quote from blady
    I think NY is on the right track. It has always been a state that is flexible for lots of profession. Maybe that's why they don't have reciprocity with other top states.
    Name a State that NY doesn't have reciprocity with. Some states refuse reciprocity for certain types of degrees, but that doesn't extend to NLN approved ADN and BSN programs.

    In fact, the NY Nursing Commissioner's office specifically lists any course of professional nursing approved by their home State BONs as meeting the educational requirement for NY:

    http://www.op.nysed.gov/part64.htm

    Registered professional nursing. To meet the professional education requirement, the applicant shall have graduated from:

    "a program in nursing approved by the licensing authority in another state, territory or possession of the United States as preparation for practice as a registered professional nurse;"


    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Feb 8, '07
  8. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from blady
    Some states only offer jobs in nursing homes and the like to ADNs.

    That isn't true.

    steph
  9. by   want2scuba
    Quote from Gromit
    I know the CC I went to sure didn't have any 'cakewalk' courses. The ENTIRE ADN Program was grueling. We worked our tails off -doubly so when you considder that with few exceptions, we all had regular full-time jobs as well. Each section of the program was filled with research, each section tested not only the current info, but the previous stuff as well (anything was fair game, so you didn't 'get soft' on things you had already passed) -we had papers, live presentations to perform, and the usual stuff that all programs have (the clinicals -both in school practicals as well as hospital-based).
    Now, my CC was considdered one of the more difficult ones, but I don't know of anyone who claims their ADN program was easy, or that they had time to catnap. Thats just plain insulting, and reeks of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
    I agree with you 100 percent. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree, so I already have all my prerequisites completed except the science classes.

    I graduated college in 1986. My college had a very reputable nursing school. I wasn't interested in much back then other than taking the easy way out. Writing always came easy to me. I avoided all of the science classes I could.

    Now at 41, I am returning to school in hopes of becoming a RN. There was one post that said that in addition to taking all of the prerequitsites for a Bachelor's degree, they have two years of full time nursing school.

    I am attending a very tough CC. I've had all of those basic prerequisites. The only difference is BEFORE we can be accepted into nursing school,(which is very competitive at my school) we have to have COMPLETED chemistry, biology, microbiology, anatomy and physiology I and II with an extremely high GPA to even have a chance of getting of getting in. We also have to take the pre-admission test for nursing (NLN). If we have a high GPA, and do extremely well on the NLN, we may get into nursing school.

    After that, it is two years of full time nursing school. I do not see how that would make graduating nurses from our school less equipped for nursing.

    In fact, I mentioned in a previous post. A friend of mine, who has an ADN from my CC, is the manager of the Oncology/Pallative care (sp?) department at the very prestigious Northwestern Hospital in Chicago.

    She is working toward her BSN, not because she needs it to be a manager. She wants to be a NP. She loves her job, and is very well respected.
  10. by   blady
    Get over people and get educated! Education is for your own upbuilding. If that becomes law and you don't live in NY it would not affect you until your state starts following suit because you know its only going to be a matter of time.

    Compare different states like MA vs NY for reciprocity (FYI to the person who wanted to know)

    I'll repeat..other professions require much higher standard of education - they don't have a shortage and they get paid well.

    Nursing is more than pushing meds and wound care. Our profession should not have to be of NP status to gain respect. Did anyone consider why we have a shortage in faculty.
    Last edit by blady on Feb 9, '07
  11. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from blady
    Did anyone consider why we have a shortage in faculty.
    We have a shortage of nursing instructors because their salaries are set in line with their academic peers, and as a result, ADN nurses can outearn MSN instructors with just a few yrs experience and just a few shifts of overtime.

    The disparity between education and income is why there are so few instructors. BTW, it also happens to be the SAME reason why more ADNs don't go back for their BSN.

    It's not a lack of education but a lack of reward for it. If anything, this speaks volumes about where the transition to BSN is heading if employers have their way: higher standards, same level of pay and respect.

    This is the old 'chicken and the egg' game: which came first, higher salaries or BSN? My take, without the incentive of higher salary, you will not get a 'breakout' to BSN. It's easy to claim that moving to BSN will result in increased salary. Reality, for too many, points otherwise.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Feb 9, '07
  12. by   spydercadet
    i have always loved these "discussions" it pits us against one another and we start to show our true colors. nurses will no longer be needed to care for patients; but we are professionals!!! we are "equal" to physicians and equality is sameness, right??? we'll show them!!!

    all the while patient care goes down, the nursing shortage goes up and we continue to argue. the ama is already starting to put our house in order for us and if we don't get it together soon we won't even have a say in what our house looks like. i love being a nurse, i started with a diploma and am now working towards a master's degree, but that's by my choice. by forcing us all to get bachelor's degrees and then on to advanced degrees, we stop doing what nurses do and what we all went into nursing for - to take care of the patient. i believe physicians are tired of their patients not being taken care of; med's not on time, dressings not being done, etc...so what have they done already??? just look, licensure has taken such a structured role that a doctor needs to hire a rn to help in their offices, but what doctor can really afford that? so now we have medical assistants, they can do everything, if not more, that a rn can do. they just need to have the doctor on the premises. but a physician can hire a ma at $12-15/hr vs. a rn at $30/hr. just look a little further to surgical techs and what's on the horizon??? medication techs. when will nursing realize what is going on here? the ama is taking care of our business and we don't even know it.

    is anyone out there who sees what i see??? does anyone know what to do??? i teach nursing right now and want to know if i am doing it in vain or will they really have jobs and will those jobs be as nurses, or will they be something completely different???
  13. by   subee
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Name one.

    This above statement just isn't true.

    Also, as has been pointed out, this issue died without a vote in the LAST NY legislature. It was not even considered a viable enough option to entertain debate.


    As has been pointed out repeatedly, there is no significant income gap between ADN and BSN. It's a nice thought, but it doesn't translate to reality.

    IF there were a real wage difference, this wouldn't be a debate at all. As more nurses gravitated towards that extra pay, both current nurses and potential nurses would make their choices accordingly with the result being that nursing would skew towards BSN on its own.



    Most boards of nursing include a range of members, from lay public, other healthcare professionals and a range of qualifications of nurses to include those with ADNs. Indeed, on most boards, there are an equal range of representation across the nursing spectrum: there is no more representation for one group over the others.

    IN addition, most certifications open to BSNs are open to ADNs.



    Name a State that NY doesn't have reciprocity with. Some states refuse reciprocity for certain types of degrees, but that doesn't extend to NLN approved ADN and BSN programs.

    In fact, the NY Nursing Commissioner's office specifically lists any course of professional nursing approved by their home State BONs as meeting the educational requirement for NY:

    http://www.op.nysed.gov/part64.htm

    Registered professional nursing. To meet the professional education requirement, the applicant shall have graduated from:

    "a program in nursing approved by the licensing authority in another state, territory or possession of the United States as preparation for practice as a registered professional nurse;"


    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    New York does not have reciprocity with any other state. Where one went to school has nothing to do with reciprocity. I live fifteen minutes to another state (abutting New York) and it took five months to get a license from that state.The ncsbn has a list of states with reciprocity agreements.

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