A Different Approach to the ADN vs. BSN Debate

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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Over and over again, we read the same things on these threads. Pay BSN's more at the bedside, and mandate a BSN for all entry level nurses. There is widespread assumption that a BSN mandate would limit the labor supply even further and increase nursing wages.

I'm not sure that would actually happen but, for the sake of argument, let's assume that it would. Ok: so now you're making more money but, since I live in California where we have mandated staffing ratios ... it got me thinking. What's going to happen in the other 49 states where you don't have ratio laws? Isn't it possible that with a more limited labor pool the hospitals would give you even more unreasonable patient loads at the bedside than you have now?

A BSN mandate could very well limit supply and increase wages but it does nothing to improve working conditions. This is where, IMO, a ratio law is a better alternative because it does both. While a ratio law doesn't limit the supply, it does increase the demand and wages by limiting the number of assigned patients to each RN and forcing the hospitals to create more nursing positions.

Plus, it has the added benefit of making your life a hellava lot easier at the bedside which a BSN mandate doesn't do. By limiting supply even further, a BSN mandate could very well thwart attempts to mandate ratios in other states if there aren't enough nurses to staff mandated ratios.

Now ... this may not satisfy BSN nurses who want more consideration for your degrees but, this is where I don't understand you guys. I'm a recent ADN grad and I'll be spending the next two years working on my BSN. You BSN nurses are already way ahead of me.

You definitely qualify for more jobs than I do. There are, at least, some jobs where you can make more money than me at the bedside and, there are other jobs where your BSN counts as additional experience, etc. for promotion. In my area, at least, the BSN career opportunities are tremendous because there aren't that many BSN nurses to begin with. You're also way ahead of me in getting your master's, which increases your job prospects even further.

I see plenty of benefits with the BSN as it is. If I didn't ... I wouldn't bother with the time and expense of furthering my education.

And I wonder if any of the BSN nurses have considered the flip side of all of this? If everyone had a BSN then, everyone would also qualify for those other job opportunities that only you qualify for now. For nurses who don't want to work at the bedside, you already have a huge advantage over the rest of us.

Do you really want every nurse to qualify for the jobs that only you qualify for now? In some ways, this could actually be detrimental to BSN nurses who, IMO, have a huge advantage over the rest of us as it is.

As the old saying goes ... be careful what you wish for.

Just some food for thought.

:typing

Specializes in PEDS ~ PP ~ NNB & LII Nursery.

"I think the use of the term "real" nurses isn't necessary."

I think dancingqueen was simply using the term some tend to use in the argument in regards to the ADN vs BSN debate. Not really a personal opinion. At least that is the way I see it with the use of the quotations marks. :)

rags

Specializes in Stepdown/IMU, full-time Night shift charge.

Getting the RN was the first and only thing on my mind when I decided to apply to the local community college. When I get out and pass NCLEX-RN, I will work in a field in which I always wanted to work. I really don't give a rat's whatever what a few insecure people think about my (oh my God! run for the hills) ADN. With my work ethic, maturity, and my uneducated high intelligence, I'm sure I'll do pretty dang well as an RN.

(Note use of the term RN 3 times during this post. For those who have forgotten, it means Registered Nurse. ADN nor BSN mean Registered Nurse, unless you pass the NCLEX-RN.)

thanks, msadn, for putting it so clearly. i'm starting an adn program in the fall, and i hold a masters degree in another field. i look forward to passing the nclex (in a few years) so i can practice nursing. as i see it, the path one chooses to become an rn is only the beginning. our educations are never complete!!!

The question isn't whether or not all of the different ways of being qualified to become an RN are valid. They ARE valid. If you complete any of the different programs, you CAN take the NCLEX-RN. The question is do you think the current system can be improved upon, and if so, how?

RN training that includes the earning of an associate's degree shouldn't be tossed in casually with other "two-year degrees." There's the RN training as well as any other coursework required to qualify for the ASN. The same with BSN programs. There's the RN training and then a bachelor's degree is ALSO earned. An employer can choose whether or not to compensate their employees for earning an AS or BS in addition to having the requisite RN license.

On a broader level, licensing requirements aren't set in stone. It could be required that an person must have at least an associate's degree (or some kind of equivalency) in order to be qualified to start RN training. Or it could be decided to completely separate RN training from other degree programs and that if you wanted to earn a college degree, you'd have to go to a different program (though it likely would give credit for some of the RN coursework).

I'm sorry, but I think you've misunderstood something: there is no "State board" exam; the NCLEX-RN is a national licensing exam. That means that the exact same testing material (randomly chosen from the databank) is used in every State.

There is no such thing as a "Missouri board", so it's not possible that this non-existent board changed anything for the NCLEX in your particular State. While there IS a Missouri State Board of Nursing (as there is for every State), they have no control over the content of the questions given for the NCLEX in your State. The one I take in NY is the same testing material that is used in WI, MO, etc.

If there was a change in the passage rates of any particular school, it had to do with how they were addressing their curriculum compared to the material being tested on the NCLEX.

In response to the above post:

Your right I am sorry. I meant to say the NCLEX, however for some reason put the State Board. I do realize it is the NCLEX, thanks for the clarification. I am not sure the hint of sarcasm was necessary, knowledge is greatly appreciated. My point was that mandating a BSN may not occur anytime soon, but steps are being made to create ADN programs to incorporate BSN material or to alleviate ADN students from passing the NCLEX. I have been gettin all my information ready for the Missouri State Boards in order to be able to take the NC-CLEX Unless you took the boards two years in a row you may not realize that. This is something we discussed in out Med Surg II class and again are discussing this in our newly added Nursing Issues as a direct reflection of this change. Our instructor doesn't believe that a BSN mandate is possible right now with the current shortage, but she stated there are other ways to accomplish this BSN requirement. For example the NCLEX change. I am new to this site. I hope not everyone carries the same derogatory response as you did. Must say it makes me hesitant to respond. I gain so much from everyone's opinion so I shared what little experience I have in regard to the subject!

Well, I wrote no sarcasm, intended no sarcasm, so if it was perceived, I apologize. I also don't feel that I had anything derogatory in my post whatsoever. I wasn't putting you down in any way, I was merely correcting a mistake that shows up on these boards from time to time. It wasn't a personal comment, just laying out something that is often misunderstood. The term "state boards" keeps cropping up, and it's a misnomer. The idea that anyone prepares for "state boards" as a requirement for the NCLEX is also a mistake, and one that shows up. So people like myself, who have been posting here a long time, do occasionally put out the information for those who read (but don't post).

I am sorry if you took my message the wrong way; without being able to see one's expressions and gestures and hear the tone of voice, the tone of one's writing must speak for themselves, and it's not always "heard" as it was intended. I meant no disrespect, and hope to hear more from you in the future :)

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
Well, I wrote no sarcasm, intended no sarcasm, so if it was perceived, I apologize. I also don't feel that I had anything derogatory in my post whatsoever. I wasn't putting you down in any way, I was merely correcting a mistake that shows up on these boards from time to time. It wasn't a personal comment, just laying out something that is often misunderstood. The term "state boards" keeps cropping up, and it's a misnomer. The idea that anyone prepares for "state boards" as a requirement for the NCLEX is also a mistake, and one that shows up. So people like myself, who have been posting here a long time, do occasionally put out the information for those who read (but don't post).

I am sorry if you took my message the wrong way; without being able to see one's expressions and gestures and hear the tone of voice, the tone of one's writing must speak for themselves, and it's not always "heard" as it was intended. I meant no disrespect, and hope to hear more from you in the future :)

Sometimes it's hard to communicate online. I didn't see anything derogatory either, but it's all in the "eyes" of the reader I suppose. You apologized, clarified, and we shall move on. Thanks! :)

I find it strange that you would actually say you didn't consider nursing simply because someone could do it with a 2-3 year education. Can you expain your reasoning behind that a little more?

rags

Well, I don't know it's reasoning, but if one grows up in an environment where university education is the minimum expectation from your parents, one can't say that "I want to do nursing that does not need university education."

My parents would have been so disappointed if I have gone to community college after high school. For them it doesn't make sense to choose community college instead of university just because the former is cheaper and you can go into the workforce faster.

Fellow colleagues, I'm an RN, BSN, and have been at it for 15 years myself. I personally thought I'd like to go into admin. but very quickly realized my "true" passion was bedside nursing. The point I'd like to make here is that I've not been able to do ANY nursing since I had a bad fall in Feb.2004 and and battle depression because I miss nsg. so much and deal with physical pain everyday. I think it's real sad to read this (as a newcomer) and get the impression that the old adage is true that "nurses devour their own"...when are we going to unite as a positive front of medical professionals here to assist in the best delivery of health care TOGETHER, no matter what "level" we are in nursing? I'm dissapointed in the context of this particular subject matter with the back and forth defensiveness of both sides. At the risk of offending my fellow colleagues...Please realize just how fortunate you all are to be able to practice nsg. in whatever area and "level" of expertise that you so choose and COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS!!! sincerely, Grammel

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

Well most parents would probably prefer their child attain the highest level of education possible. I know I wish that for my kids, you bet.

However, as we already said, a huge proportion of new nurses are not young adults just out of high school or people who have a mom and dad to support or pay for them to go to school. Many are returning students who have their own families and jobs, as well as school to do each and everyday. And also like already said, not everyone can commute an hour or more each way to attend a uni program, when there are ADN programs nearer by. They have kids to get home from school, or jobs to attend when they are not in school so they can pay their tuitions, and put food on the table and pay their bills.

Try to understand, many, many nurses are 2nd and 3rd career folks, not young college students whose only responsibility may be to go to school. There are a lot of reasons people choose their varying education paths, and some of us are not really worried what Mom and Dad think, as they have not paid our bills since high school----- and we may be 30, 40 or older so we are past worrying what our parents would choose for us at this point in life. We are just trying to get by like so many others, and that is what makes sense to us.

Respectfully submitted---and hopefully understood. Thanks.

Fellow colleagues, I'm an RN, BSN, and have been at it for 15 years myself. I personally thought I'd like to go into admin. but very quickly realized my "true" passion was bedside nursing. The point I'd like to make here is that I've not been able to do ANY nursing since I had a bad fall in Feb.2004 and and battle depression because I miss nsg. so much and deal with physical pain everyday. I think it's real sad to read this (as a newcomer) and get the impression that the old adage is true that "nurses devour their own"...when are we going to unite as a positive front of medical professionals here to assist in the best delivery of health care TOGETHER, no matter what "level" we are in nursing? I'm dissapointed in the context of this particular subject matter with the back and forth defensiveness of both sides. At the risk of offending my fellow colleagues...Please realize just how fortunate you all are to be able to practice nsg. in whatever area and "level" of expertise that you so choose and COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS!!! sincerely, Grammel

Grammel, thank you for posting, and joining our forum. You do put into perspective something that is often missing: the fact that the huge huge majority of us are in nursing because we want to be, whatever that path was that took us there. And we ARE fortunate to be doing something that we want to do, no matter how much griping and complaining goes on (if you visited a forum like this for any particular occupation, I'm 100% sure you'd see the same things--not the degree issues perhaps, but certainly the complaints and venting).

While you cannot do bedside nursing, I'm guessing you've looked into consulting....? Possibly online education that could get you into case management--that while I understand isn't bedside, could still keep you involved with patient care and outcomes, family teaching? I hope there's something out there for you, as you are so passionate about nursing. Maybe even in reading around these message boards, you'll find something you didn't know was an option. I hope so!

Well, I don't know it's reasoning, but if one grows up in an environment where university education is the minimum expectation from your parents, one can't say that "I want to do nursing that does not need university education."

My parents would have been so disappointed if I have gone to community college after high school. For them it doesn't make sense to choose community college instead of university just because the former is cheaper and you can go into the workforce faster.

I completely understand this, I really do. When I graduated from high school, I toyed with the idea of not going to college at all and THAT shocked my parents to no end: I was to be the first college graduate in my family and believe me, that was a huge big deal. My father and grandfather were (are) extremely well educated people, but not in the traditional degree sense: they were intelligent enough to take on schooling themselves, reading and studying to make the most out of what they were doing and pass on that love of education to their children and grandchildren.

Now, that said, they were proud of me when I obtained my first degree. But that said, my only responsibility, really, was myself: I worked part-time for money as I chose, not because I had a mortgage to pay or kids to feed. Or even myself, for that matter. When I traveled abroad to work and attend a university program for a different goal, they supported that too (although financially I could support myself for that one). They were very proud.

But when I went back to school after having been married ten years and having two children and all that goes into keeping that thriving, they were practically bursting with pride. NOTHING I had done in any schooling before that compared. My becoming an RN was their shining moment of pride, but NOT because of the additional degree attained (although of course that was important---and there was NO looking down on the Associates aspect). It was because I was achieving yet again, and excelling in education and life and THAT was far more important to them than whether that RN education was Associates or Bachelor's. And that, NextSummer, is really the difference between the grand majority of nursing students today and the "traditional" students of yesteryear: 2nd and 3rd career adults with families versus teenagers just out of primary education.

I look at my eldest son and know that I want him to go ALL THE WAY, lol....I don't even know what that is, but darn it, he'd better get as far in education as possible. That's my expectation, not just my desire. But I have also learned that sometimes the greatest satisfactions in life don't come with the highest degree or education attained. I would rather seem him a very happy computer tech than a miserable cardiologist. Sorry, Mom :)

Specializes in PEDS ~ PP ~ NNB & LII Nursery.

"not everyone can commute an hour or more each way to attend a uni program, when there are ADN programs nearer by."

In my case the "local" university BSN program was 5 hours away (not even an option without relocating for any person) and the ADN program I attended was an hour each way. I think many don't realize that Nursing would not have even been considered had I and others like me (older generation) not had a closer nursing program as an option.

I'm totally speculating here, but when I was in High School, continuing education was important, but not as important as it is now. I would guess only about 50% of my 750 student high school graduating class even went on to further their education out of high school. Of the ones that did it was equally divided between VoTech, Community College and University attendance. >20 has seen a lot of change. For me to go back to school when my kids were in High School themselves was a major thing in itself and going to a 2 year College as opposed to a University really didn't make a lick of difference in the pride I and my family (including extended family) felt with this step in our lives.

I take nothing away from the BSN programs and the ones who are able to choose them. I applaud you! However I applaud everyone who attends any form of high education just as loudly, be it a 2 year College or even a Vocational School. Doing better for yourself is never an easy thing to do and all forms of it deserve to be recognized and respected. :yelclap::yeah::thankya::bowingpur:icon_hug:

rags

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