Any ADN-BSN programs without ridiculous papers?

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subee, MSN, CRNA

1 Article; 5,416 Posts

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
Ya I feel you. I got dumber doing my BSN program at a local state U. The papers were stupid, the level of discourse was pathetic, the learning non-exsistant. You will get many apologists here for the BSN. Most of them have never studied any other field and have no idea how abserd the BSN is. Many will accuse you of being anti education if you recognize the weakness inherent on BSN programs. As far as I am concered the the BSN, as they are now, are a waste of tim

No way I would have done it except it was free and I got to write most of my papers on paid time.

Many nurses are content to practice nursing as a trade. Others want take it on as a profession. Fortunately there is room for both. It is ashame that the BSN has become so cheapened; that's the issue; not that you had to get it.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
They are papers mainly. It is evidence based research. That is the biggest difference between ADN and BSN
Papers in a ADN program are evidenced based as well.....remember we all sit for the same boards.

PMFB-RN, RN

5,351 Posts

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Many nurses are content to practice nursing as a trade. Others want take it on as a profession. Fortunately there is room for both.

I don't think there is. I think the profession side will not rest until they have driven every last "trade" minded nurse out of the field. We see examples of this often.

I

t is ashame that the BSN has become so cheapened; that's the issue; not that you had to get it.

Your statement above implies that at some time in the past the BSN was something it isn't now. I would like to know when that was.

TiffyRN, BSN, PhD

2,315 Posts

Specializes in Nurse Scientist-Research.
Papers in a ADN program are evidenced based as well.....remember we all sit for the same boards.

Esme, not contradicting you at all here. I would just like to point out that some of us went to school when papers were not required. The only paper I wrote in ADN school was a micro paper (on botulism) and a drug paper (on atropine I think?). Both were very short and maybe had 2 sources, none from true scholastic journals. Unlike students of today, it took me going back to school and taking a couple of courses teaching research methods to learn how to read current research and evaluate it. Could I have done this on my own? Heck yea! But I wasn't going to!

elkpark

14,633 Posts

*** Oh there was certainly information about the course itself. What I meant was there it wasn't like a lecture where a professor with advanced knowledge of the subject stood in front of the class and taught us. It was all self learning. We were supposed to teach ourselves.

Oh. Well, again, there is a lot of variation among programs. In my state university B&M BSN completion program, professors with advanced knowledge of (and experience in) the subject(s) did stand in front of the class and teach us. It wasn't a big thrill or anything, but it was a valid, worthwhile educational experience.

PMFB-RN, RN

5,351 Posts

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Oh. Well, again, there is a lot of variation among programs. In my state university B&M BSN completion program, professors with advanced knowledge of (and experience in) the subject(s) did stand in front of the class and teach us. It wasn't a big thrill or anything, but it was a valid, worthwhile educational experience.

*** I am just saying the very expensive class took 8 weeks to cover what was already learned in a two day education offered by a group of area hospitals who used for more effective teaching methods.

As big a joke as my class at a state university was, you should see was some of my co-workers who attended for profit online programs like U of P.

There shouldn't be much variation among accredited BSN programs. However you are correct, there is a lot of variation and BSN after a nurses name doesn't really tell you much about her education.

ixchel

4,547 Posts

Specializes in critical care.

PMFB, you have stated countless times how terrible your program was in general, and those of us who have been in excellent BSN programs have challenged that idea with our own experiences and you have had some form of, "yeah, but....." to shoot us down every time. Clearly we have had vastly differing experiences that left us with completely different ideas on the subject.

My class was presented in lecture format, with 4 exams in total with one project where we selected a research article and we dissected it in a presentation in front of the class. My class wasn't a "this is how you research stuff" class with a tour of a card catalog. It was a "here is how to critically appraise a research study so you know whether it is any good or not" class. Some parts of the class were stupidly easy. Other parts were very challenging. Overall, when it comes to nursing class in general, yes, I was glad for what felt like an easier A. But I still learned a lot and I was still challenged.

The approach they had in presenting the context was as follows:

Intro to nursing research

Overview of the research process

Understanding evidence-based practice

Ethical issues in nursing research

Selecting and defining the problem

Formulating hypotheses and research questions

Selecting a sample and a setting

Applying appropriate theories and conceptual models

Analyzing quantitative data (this was the hardest of all - statistics. Not computing them, but understanding them in detail.)

Interpreting and reporting research findings

And finally, critiquing research reports, which brought it all together for the sake of deciding whether the research was valid, necessary, and worth it.

Each of those topics defined each component contained within, and highlighted what would be present in a good study, and what would make it a bad study. Since this class, I have moved on to do my own research (review of literature) for an independent study, and what I've taken from my research class is the ability to look at studies and say, "this is junk", and thank goodness for that. I had one study in particular that I was really excited to use because it perfectly described my population and topic of interest. As I made my way through the study, I discovered about midway through that the majority of the subjects had a comorbid condition that should have excluded them completely. Very frustrating because it had the potential to be one of the strongest pieces of my project, but I couldn't use it. I really don't think I would have considered that had I done my reading before I took my research class.

Just some food for thought. Clearly your class just sucked, but that doesn't mean that they all do. Mine was pretty fantastic, even on the days when I felt overwhelmed by my course load in general. And all of the writing I have done has refined me. Will it improve the nurse I will be? Well, I won't know until I get there. I think it does largely depend on your goals in nursing. I have no desire to be med/surg, and can see to a degree how the volume of writing seems silly if that is your goal after graduation.

However, how about areas of medicine and nursing practice that are rapidly changing, such as neuro? Doesn't it help to understand the studies directly, rather than someone else's interpretation of them? I can't tell you how many times I've heard fantastic information on the news, then followed the trail to the original research article and it turns out the research itself was somehow severely flawed.

ixchel

4,547 Posts

Specializes in critical care.

Well now that was a lengthy ramble. ☺️

Specializes in Emergency.

I think we have an apples vs. oranges conversation going on about different types of programs.

There's the brick & mortar adn-bsn which has facetime with the professor, lectures, reading, papers & tests. Then there's the online version which has reading, online discussions & papers.

I'm in the latter type and yeah, it is pretty lame and basically a rubber stamp. Sad, but I need the "BSN" in order to do anything beyond the bedside. That said, I am one of those 2nd career RNs who came to nursing with degrees in other fields and considerable experience. So for me it's ok.

PMFB-RN, RN

5,351 Posts

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
PMFB, you have stated countless times how terrible your program was in general,

*** No, I don't think I have.

and those of us who have been in excellent BSN programs have challenged that idea with our own experiences and you have had some form of, "yeah, but....." to shoot us down every time. Clearly we have had vastly differing experiences that left us with completely different ideas on the subject.

I actually think I went to one of the best BSN programs in the county and that it is representative of the better BSN programs. However I also feel that is like saying one is the best surfer in all of Wisconsin. It may be true but you haven't said much.

My class was presented in lecture format, with 4 exams in total with one project where we selected a research article and we dissected it in a presentation in front of the class. My class wasn't a "this is how you research stuff" class with a tour of a card catalog. It was a "here is how to critically appraise a research study so you know whether it is any good or not" class. Some parts of the class were stupidly easy. Other parts were very challenging. Overall, when it comes to nursing class in general, yes, I was glad for what felt like an easier A. But I still learned a lot and I was still challenged.

You don't see the point I am always making. I am sure it is my fault for not making it clearly. Don't you see that it doesn't matter how great your class was and how much you learned? So long as there are programs out there that are a joke, where the level of discourse is ridiculous, your degree will be devalued.

A BSN behind a nurses name should mean something. However it doesn't. Sure it may make it easier to get a job but it doesn't tell anyone anything about your education.

Since this class, I have moved on to do my own research (review of literature) for an independent study, and what I've taken from my research class is the ability to look at studies and say, "this is junk", and thank goodness for that.

I came to my program with that ability. I agree that if you were incapable of recognizing a junk study or paper prior to your BSN class then thank goodness you took that class.

Just some food for thought. Clearly your class just sucked, but that doesn't mean that they all do.

Don't you see that it doesn't matter?

Mine was pretty fantastic, even on the days when I felt overwhelmed by my course load in general. And all of the writing I have done has refined me. Will it improve the nurse I will be? Well, I won't know until I get there. I think it does largely depend on your goals in nursing. I have no desire to be med/surg, and can see to a degree how the volume of writing seems silly if that is your goal after graduation.

Wait a second! Are you saying that you are in a pre-licensure BSN program? If so then that changes everything and discussing this with you is a waste of time.

Of course you had difficulty interpreting studies! The issue I am addressing is the experienced ADN RN who is being made to take (and pay for) these redundant classes.

However, how about areas of medicine and nursing practice that are rapidly changing, such as neuro? Doesn't it help to understand the studies directly, rather than someone else's interpretation of them?

That is a HUGE subject change! Your are making a false presupposition that without a BSN research class one can't understand the studies directly. This is very unlikely since the ADN education pretty much covers the same material as the BSN.

That there is value in understanding studies is so obvious a point as to not need mentioning.

ixchel

4,547 Posts

Specializes in critical care.
If so then that changes everything and discussing this with you is a waste of time.

Tell me, how is the air up there?

I may be a first degree BSN, but my traditional program is paralleled in the ADN-BSN program and there are no classes they take that I don't also take. Our local ADN program does not include a research class, which is specifically what this particular conversation had turned toward (the merits of including a research class). I'm glad you learned everything you needed to know on the job, but again, I stress to you that faculty can't simply hand you a degree just because you say you know everything. They have to verify it, and presently the best method they have is through applying the knowledge via exams and written work. I don't care how much better you think you are than me. That IS the way it is.

And yes, you did complain about the quality of your program earlier in this thread, and no, I won't go find those posts because this thread of 27 pages long. What we DO agree in is the issue that the quality of one program can reflect on the degree as a whole. That is definitely unfortunate and frustrating. I've worked my butt off thus far to earn this degree and the idea that it might be undermined by the perceived quality of the degree is disheartening. You will never be able to convince me, though, that writing and research are a bad thing.

As I understand it.... The perceived difference between ADN and BSN that I have encountered is that BSN is more theory focused, whereas ADN is more skills focused. This is one of many reasons why I chose BSN right out of the gate. What else would you have the ADN do to bridge to BSN? Learn the skills all over again? I think THAT would be the larger tragedy and waste of effort.

So, since you seem to enjoy describing everything that is wrong, tell me - how would you do it right? I'm genuinely curious to hear what solutions you might bring to the table.

PMFB-RN, RN

5,351 Posts

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Tell me, how is the air up there?

My point was that you are in no position to make an argument on the topic. In the same way I personally have no experience with pre licensure BSN programs designed to take people off the street and make them competent entry level nurses. The two are very different things.

I may be a first degree BSN, but my traditional program is paralleled in the ADN-BSN program and there are no classes they take that I don't also take. Our local ADN program does not include a research class, which is specifically what this particular conversation had turned toward (the merits of including a research class).

The presence or lack of a research class doesn't tell you anything about the research education provided. For example in my area the ADN programs do not include a specific pharmacology class. That doesn't mean the students don't learn the same pharmacology as students in other programs. They do because they have to.

I'm glad you learned everything you needed to know on the job,

*** Your statement above is pretty out here. I certainly have not yet learned everything I need to know. It is an ongoing process that will last my lifetime. Claiming to have learned the basics, as covered in any undergrad class, is a very different thing than claiming to know "everything".

but again, I stress to you that faculty can't simply hand you a degree just because you say you know everything.

Who said they should hand me or anyone else a degree? Who would want that? What I want is for the BSN to be changed to a rigorous and meaningful. I don't want to be handed a degree, I want to work hard for it, I want to be challenged, I want to LEARN. These are things not happening currently. I don't want experienced nurses to feel like they got dumber when they return to school.

I don't care how much better you think you are than me. That IS the way it is.

Don't take things so personal. I don't know you, I don't think I am better than you, nothing I have said would lead any reasonable person to that conclusion. I am well aware of the way things are and I wan to change them.

And yes, you did complain about the quality of your program earlier in this thread,

Maybe as a representative of BSN programs. As I said I believe I went to among the better BSN programs.

T

hat is definitely unfortunate and frustrating. I've worked my butt off thus far to earn this degree and the idea that it might be undermined by the perceived quality of the degree is disheartening.

Yes I imagine it is. However your are mistaken if you feel there is only one problem programs out there.

You will never be able to convince me, though, that writing and research are a bad thing.

Uh, why would I try to convince you of something I don't believe?

As I understand it.... The perceived difference between ADN and BSN that I have encountered is that BSN is more theory focused, whereas ADN is more skills focused.

I think that if that perception was ever true, it isn't true now and hasn't been for a long time. The truth is there is isn't enough difference between them to tell in most cases.

This is one of many reasons why I chose BSN right out of the gate. What else would you have the ADN do to bridge to BSN? Learn the skills all over again? I think THAT would be the larger tragedy and waste of effort.

The nursing portion of an RN to BSN programs pretty much mimics what is already taught in the ADN programs.

So, since you seem to enjoy describing everything that is wrong, tell me - how would you do it right? I'm genuinely curious to hear what solutions you might bring to the table.

Sure, first get rid of the online only, for profit diploma mills. That is not to say that a great education can not be obtained via online, I know it can. Second make the BSN about the study of advanced physiology, pharmacology, psychology, and pathophysiology. Eliminate the stupid and unhelpful nursing diagnosis and nursing theory. The BSN should be earned in the research lab and at the bedside. Not writing silly paper after silly paper. Of course a professional writing class should be included so that nurses learn to express themselves properly. Design the BSN to be prepared nurses to be full partners in the care team, design it to provide an education that would justify the expansion of nurses scope of practice.

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