Evolution and Nursing

[TheFowldogg]

I just want to see how people feel about evolution on the nursing community. This is no way bashing thread. I just want to see if any people choose not to believe in evolution and be in nursing

[macawake, MSN]

Elle23 said:

Where did I say science is evil?

No need to throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.

I'm afraid that I'm no more clear on your line of reasoning after your answer. I was actually asking you if you think that science/scientists are evil. The reason I did so was that you called The Theory of Evolution, Satanic.

If you consider a theory Satanic, what does that in your mind say about the thousands of scientists in many different fields who've found evidence that supports the theory? There's hardly any controversy within the scientific community regarding evolution, it's a widely accepted theory. Calling a scientific theory Satanic just seems extreme to me.

Honest question, do you attach the same adjective to Newton's law of gravity? If you don't, why not?

[Gooselady, BSN, RN]

chopwood carrywater said:

I believe you but my point is that even if it was "spiritual " in nature, it still would not necessarily hold up to evidence based proof. My point is that I believe that many people are able to hold a belief in spiritual or religious concepts and still create, understand and use scientific concepts and theories. Many people don't or won't. I'm sure there are quite a few atheists who don't believe in vaccines. I think most people can understand my point. It doesn't mean the have to agree with it.

Ah, I see what you're saying ? There are a couple of scientists, one a neuroscientist, who wrote a book about 'spirituality' and he is a staunch atheist (Sam Harris), so yes, they aren't incompatible. It's more that a certain 'flavor' of supernatural being that clashes, the Judeo-Christian God being one who clashes depending on how literal the followers take the Bible.

It's the latter ones that take their sacred books SO literally who's staunch beliefs have caused the rest of us unnecessary road blocks. After the US Republican party (IMO) began pretending to be religious to gain the voter base (IMO lol!), we lost stem cell research, we lost the super-collider bigger than the one at CERN which was to be built in Texas, we've had several schools go to court over being forced to plug Creationism/Intelligent Design in SCIENCE classes (not literature or history, science!). At the local level, there's always some kind of 'drama' going on instigated by hard core literalists. Heck, you don't need 'religion', you can be a dangerous literalist like Kim Jong-Il, so it's not fair to attribute that kind of literalism ONLY to religions.

But that is the kind of literalism that is problematic here in the US. Not because anyone sits quietly at home and never votes or lobbies. When an entire society is effected to the detriment of science, medicine, law and art by a narrow, specific kind of Christian literalism, that is problematic. Those of us who don't share these beliefs have to wear the ball and chain, too. I'm criticizing the literalism and the behaviors that result from it, not persons themselves.

I think having discussions about it is very important, so we can find a way to work together so that those of who don't share a belief that a 3 day old human embryo has a soul don't have their research crippled, and the believers free to live accordingly with their beliefs, unthreatened and respected.

[chopwood carrywater]

Gooselady said:

Ah, I see what you're saying ? There are a couple of scientists, one a neuroscientist, who wrote a book about 'spirituality' and he is a staunch atheist (Sam Harris), so yes, they aren't incompatible. It's more that a certain 'flavor' of supernatural being that clashes, the Judeo-Christian God being one who clashes depending on how literal the followers take the Bible.

It's the latter ones that take their sacred books SO literally who's staunch beliefs have caused the rest of us unnecessary road blocks. After the US Republican party (IMO) began pretending to be religious to gain the voter base (IMO lol!), we lost stem cell research, we lost the super-collider bigger than the one at CERN which was to be built in Texas, we've had several schools go to court over being forced to plug Creationism/Intelligent Design in SCIENCE classes (not literature or history, science!). At the local level, there's always some kind of 'drama' going on instigated by hard core literalists. Heck, you don't need 'religion', you can be a dangerous literalist like Kim Jong-Il, so it's not fair to attribute that kind of literalism ONLY to religions.

But that is the kind of literalism that is problematic here in the US. Not because anyone sits quietly at home and never votes or lobbies. When an entire society is effected to the detriment of science, medicine, law and art by a narrow, specific kind of Christian literalism, that is problematic. Those of us who don't share these beliefs have to wear the ball and chain, too. I'm criticizing the literalism and the behaviors that result from it, not persons themselves.

I think having discussions about it is very important, so we can find a way to work together so that those of who don't share a belief that a 3 day old human embryo has a soul don't have their research crippled, and the believers free to live accordingly with their beliefs, unthreatened and respected.

Not a fan of Harris or Dawkins. They are the clever boys from school days who use their intellect to tear down others. I am a humanist and an atheist , and while I very much agree with your post. I do think that it is often in our nature to create an us and them situation and to then codify the means of maintain the separation and power imbalance to the benefit of the group in charge - as well for groups that want or think they are in charge.

As a favorite saying went back in the day, " My karma ran over your dogma"

Maybe not my most thought out post but I think the gist of it is here.

[Gooselady, BSN, RN]

chopwood carrywater said:

Not a fan of Harris or Dawkins. They are the clever boys from school days who use their intellect to tear down others. I am a humanist and an atheist , and while I very much agree with your post. I do think that it is often in our nature to create an us and them situation and to then codify the means of maintain the separation and power imbalance to the benefit of the group in charge - as well for groups that want or think they are in charge.

As a favorite saying went back in the day, " My karma ran over your dogma"

Maybe not my most thought out post but I think the gist of it is here.

Very good point about the 'us versus them'. If I'm gonna use that distinction to make a point, I need to remember that it is a relative distinction, that at a deeper level is not true. I appreciate Dawkins/Harris et al as well, and forgive their polemics for the most part, it's the kind of subject that needed to burst upon the scene, so to speak, to get the attention of people 'on the fence' or just not prone to connecting that certain beliefs cause certain behaviors, and these behaviors have consequences for everyone. Thank you for the reminder ?

[jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B]

In my opinion, one can worship a particular deity, and at the same time acknowledge the existence of an opposing/alternate deity ( ie:God/Satan) that one doesn't worship. But because one doesn't worship it, doesn't mean it is nonexistent in one's thought process.

If one believes that we came from a creator or we came from the evolution of monkeys is of no matter. Both theories exist. Much like nursing theory and evidence based practice. You may not "worship" it, but it is there.

What is the take away is that one can personally believe that UFO's dropped humans onto the earth as a giant experiment. The fact remains that as nurses, part of our job is that a patient's needs are met spiritually, not our own in the realm of a patient/nurse relationship.

Bottom line? What I believe, you believe, the other nurse believes is a non-issue. What the patient believes/doesn't believe is.

[RNsRWe, ASN, RN]

malamud69 said:

We need many more "Grumpy RN's" Take it a step farther. ..evolve...as a "logical/rational" species if you will-staunch "anti-theist" here. ..this "debate" is absurd...we need to completely do away with ALL religion. It simply keeps the scared and ignorant even more so...I already have read Dr. Seuss...

Well, there you go. With such an eloquent and thoughtful post, how can anyone possibly disagree?

[RNsRWe, ASN, RN]

jadelpn said:

If one believes that we came from a creator or we came from the evolution of monkeys is of no matter. Both theories exist. Much like nursing theory and evidence based practice. You may not "worship" it, but it is there.

Well no, not exactly. There IS a "Theory of Evolution"; the word "theory" is used in the scientific sense, a scientific theory. There is NO "theory of creationism"; 'theory' as applied to that phrase really just means "my own best guess based on nothing scientific whatsoever".

Big difference, IMHO.

[Elle23]

macawake said:

I'm afraid that I'm no more clear on your line of reasoning after your answer. I was actually asking you if you think that science/scientists are evil. The reason I did so was that you called The Theory of Evolution, Satanic.

And my point was that just because I believe that an unfounded scientific theory has been used by Satan to dupe millions of people does not mean I believe all science is evil. Much good comes from science, obviously.

Quote

There's hardly any controversy within the scientific community regarding evolution, it's a widely accepted theory. Calling a scientific theory Satanic just seems extreme to me.

Of course there is no controversy. The fervor and evangelical zeal with which scientists promote their agenda rivals that of the most ardent religionist.

Scientists must toe the evolutionary line or they are shunned, silenced, and shut out from the scientific community.

Quote

Honest question, do you attach the same adjective to Newton's law of gravity? If you don't, why not?

No. Why would I? First of all, I believe gravity exists. Second, what does humanity have to lose by believing gravity exists?

[Elle23]

GrumpyRN said:

Why thank you, . Always nice to be appreciated.

Again, sigh......

OK, I'm going to bite..... Why do think it is Satanic? I accept you have the right to believe what you want, but Satanic?

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is the foundational truth of the Bible upon which every other truth rests.

Take this away and the whole house of cards collapses.

Satan is not stupid.

[Elle23]

jadelpn said:

In my opinion, one can worship a particular deity, and at the same time acknowledge the existence of an opposing/alternate deity ( ie:God/Satan) that one doesn't worship.

Just to be clear, Satan is not a deity. He is a created being. He opposes God but is in no way equal to God.

[stevosmusic]

I was never huge on my faith until I started hanging out with some dude from a ministry on our college. I had always believed in God but I guess I always just blew it off to live life. One day I went to Ihop with the these dudes and they were sitting there talking about God. Then some guy walks through the door and passes our table on the way into the bathroom my friend stopped him and said "you are studying to become a vet right?" And the kid gets this crazy weird look on his face and said "yes how the hell did you know that" and he proceeded to tell him what school he went to and told hi! That God just wanted to encourage him to keep trying. Also a lesbian couple sitting next to us kept giving us dirty looks so we paid for their whole 40$ meal. I never believed in prophecy but to see this guy tell a random stranger he has never met was crazy. And to buy random peoples dinners because they dont like you is radical. I've had several other experiences like this and frankly science has no explanation/

[BrandonLPN, LPN]

stevosmusic said:

I was never huge on my faith until I started hanging out with some dude from a ministry on our college. I had always believed in God but I guess I always just blew it off to live life. One day I went to Ihop with the these dudes and they were sitting there talking about God. Then some guy walks through the door and passes our table on the way into the bathroom my friend stopped him and said "you are studying to become a vet right?" And the kid gets this crazy weird look on his face and said "yes how the hell did you know that" and he proceeded to tell him what school he went to and told hi! That God just wanted to encourage him to keep trying. Also a lesbian couple sitting next to us kept giving us dirty looks so we paid for their whole 40$ meal. I never believed in prophecy but to see this guy tell a random stranger he has never met was crazy. And to buy random peoples dinners because they dont like you is radical. I've had several other experiences like this and frankly science has no explanation/