Sure to Get Flamed for This

Time to don the fireproof underwear. It is 0500 and the reality alarm clock is ringing, and some people do not like to hear it go off. So whether you agree with me or not, I feel it is time to inject a little thought provoking ideas into your life. Nurses Announcements Archive Article

You are reading page 4 of Sure to Get Flamed for This

SeattleJess

843 Posts

Specializes in None yet..
it is a lawyer thing, I don't know what the OP means by it...

Oh my, I should have recognized this! Yes, this is what the old trial lawyer say about a question on cross-examination. I hope neither preceptor nor student are doing that!

Thanks, morte.

exp626

125 Posts

Kyrshamarks, you sound like some of the best nursing instructors I ever had. (And my mom!)

The people who had the biggest part in developing me were tough as nails and terrifying, and not always fair. I didn't always like them, and I wouldn't hang out with them because they weren't my friends. They were my teachers, not always formal teachers or preceptors. Sometimes they were crusty old nurses I worked with and mean doctors. (It never occurred to me they were bullying me. That's the word used these days for people who aren't nice to us.)

ixchel

4,547 Posts

Specializes in critical care.

To me, its just like those people who go on American Idol and think they sound like Mariah carey. When they get trashed, they are stunned because it hadn't occurred to them before then that they weren't good. And the worst part is that no one in their family told them the truth!! Everyone has to tiptoe around people's ego or fragile self esteem. I don't get it.

I remember thinking the same exact thing about American Idol. Then I had my own kids and it's so hard! I'm completely incapable of telling them they aren't good at something. But I'm pretty adamant at setting boundaries and encouraging them to do things they ARE good at, so hopefully I'm not ruining them. ? Hopefully they develop a grasp on what is something they're good and what isn't. So far it hasn't been an issue. But honestly..... This stuff does extend into adulthood just like nursing preceptorship. Having a realistic appraisal of oneself is a really important quality. I'd never encourage them if they were terrible at singing and they wanted to go on AI. ? I think I'd have to put a stop to that as gently as possible.

What it really boils down to is no one wants to think they're bad at something, and likely all of these new hires are going to become decent. If they're anything like me, though, they're horrible at first and have very clear things they need to improve on. Open your ears, close your mouth, and don't take it personally. Everyone sucks at first. When you're told you need to improve on something, genuinely, it is to your benefit to hear it. No new nurse walks onto the floor a pro at this. The feedback you are getting is making you a better person. It's not being said to hurt feelings. It's being said because your preceptor wants to know that you are becoming the kind of nurse that he or she would trust caring for his or her mom. It's because your performance reflects on them as well. It's too important to not tell you the truth. Bruised egos are not important in the big picture here.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

I think they only bad questions are the ones not asked.

There has been more of this...NETY/bullying...complaints then ever before. I think there are a few reasons for this phenomenon. There is an ever increasing pressure on bedside nurses to do more with less. Nurses are feeling anxious and overwhelmed. They are tired and frustrated. We all know that when we are tired and stressed we don't have the amount of patience necessary for every situation. I also think the "everybody" wins mentality is a disservice to the younger generation. The school of hard knock and emotional resiliency are important traits to survive life...which is full of hard knocks and obstacles.

I think another problem is the lack or training of preceptors. Hospitals are continuing to cut education budgets and the orientation process in most facilities is seriously lacking. I remember a couple of months of in classroom work that consisted policies, procedures, paper work, computers, documentation etc before we hit the floors. The students were not counted in staffing...administrations were willing to take that cost in stride to develop that new nurse. They no longer are willing to invest in any nurses eduction. We mirrored the preceptors schedule exactly. Preceptors were chosen and educated carefully so the new nurses were properly trained and educated. Preceptors were paid a differential for their efforts. This no longer occurs in most facilities today.

An ever increasing numbers of experienced nurses are being shoved from the bedside. This leaves inexperienced staff to train the new comers. These staff members are not very sure of themselves let alone to train someone else. They may very well not know the answer that the new nurse is asking and that nurses has additional patients. Now new nurses are tossed to the wolves to be guided by nurses who may not even want to orient new staff and while they may be good nurses they are not good teachers.

I see an ever increasing thought process in administration that a certain floor or nurse had it easy because after all they have nurses on orientation that day. I also see a trend that staffing decisions are being made because nursing students are on the floor so the CNA's are pulled or cancelled. Leaving a floor short handed... for now the nurses have to do the responsibilities that are assigned to the CNA and watch the students...leaving the nurses overwhelmed and unable to give anyone the proper attention.

None of these situations will give the nurse extra patience nor will it give the new nurse a good experience. They are tossed on their own too soon to repeat this cycle of undereducated inexperienced nurses. It frightens me for the future.

scottaprn

292 Posts

If one new nurse asks you the same question it is possible that either he or she isn't getting it due to her limitations or perhaps your teaching style doesn't match the learners (when this is the case it is up to you to change not the student or else just have someone else explain it.

If multiple nurses are asking you the same questions repeatedly you are doing it wrong.

I'm a newbie to posting on this board, although I've been lurking in the shadows for almost three years now. I feel that I have to say something because there is validity to both sides of this discussion. Yes, some people are way too sensitive when it comes to hard words, tough love, and being pushed to make decisions on their own. And then there are bullies. Bullies are those people who don't care about you, and spout that "life isn't fair" line like it's gospel. Sorry to say, the majority of the time, "life isn't fair" because people are mean to each other, take advantage of each other, and have no compassion. Forgive me for being naive, but isn't nursing a profession marked by compassion? So why are we so ready to tell the new grad who has barely enough clinical experience to know how to start a Foley that the question they are asking shouldn't be asked? I know this may sound crazy, but I didn't EVER have the opportunity to start a Foley in school. I wasn't ALLOWED to give IV meds, hang blood, or really do much more than watch and give insulin. Quick anecdotal illustration- two of my classmates were reamed(!) for checking blood sugars on patients at a community health center in our first semester. They were concerned about being kicked out of the program for that. The sad part- it was a four semester program. A lot of new grads are hitting the floor with less clinical nursing experience than some patients' family members!! I know that is true for me. I left the unit I was on after 6 months because I had more preceptors during my 12 week orientation than I have fingers to count them, and felt that I was not going to be able to provide safe care given my lack of exposure to hands-on clinical procedures during either my orientation or school clinicals. New grads do need to toughen up, and be willing to step out and step up. Nursing is hard. But it doesn't need to be hard because we have other nurses making it that way for us. I guess that's all I have to say about that.

jd2nurse

90 Posts

I am sure I am about to get flamed for posting this, but I feel the need to anyways. I ahve been seeing these threads talking about bullying and teachers or preceptors hating the students, and new nurses or abusing them because of some percieved slight or injustice. Well guess what young un's? The world is a hard cold nasty place that does not need to be polite to you or worry whether your feelings got hurt and you feel offended. You need to grow up and realize that the abuse that you claim is rampant, or the bullying that you experience all the time is not their problem, but rather your problem.

I see so many posts about this and I wonder how some of these people have survived as long as they have. School is tough? Deal with it. You think that someone else is geting it easier? Well too bad, they may be but no one ever promised you everything would be fair. You have to learn that there is inequality in life. It's how you overcome that inequality that matters. It teaches perseverance.

Abusive teachers? maybe they are trying to get the best in you to come out. What you think is abuse maybe is pushing you to your limits, to get you further along in your potential. So your feelings got hurt at school, grow up, feelings get hurt every day.

Your preceptor is unorganized and does not lile you and bad mouths you to your manager and all your patients love you bit no one at the hospital sees how great you really are? Well your preceptor may actually have great time mamngement skills but when having to sdslow down and teach someone thier job, things do tend to get disorganized. You may be part of the blame there. Did you ever stop to think that you are the proverbial monkey wrench in a well oiled machine? The need to teach you, and I realize you do need to learn, can be very time consuming. They may tell your manager that you need improving or that you are not advancing fast enough. They may be all smiles to you, because they want to support you and keep you positive, but they need to tell the manager how you really are.

Speaking of orientation, How often have i seen statements that say the other nurses are not supportive and will not answer questions. Have you ever thought that maybe you are asking TOO MANY questions? After a bit it may seem that you are not retaining the info provided and everyone gets tires of answering the same questions over and over. Part of learning is knowing when to shut your mouth and just watch. It is been said by people wiser than me that the only question you should ask is the question that you already know the answer to. If that does not make sense to you, think about it for a while and you might just be surprised that a light comes on.

So basically what i am saying is gorw up and act like the adult that you are. Life is not fair, school is not fair, work is not fair. You just have to learn to deal with it.

What inspired you to write that? I would bet you're not a parent.

Here's my perspective. I came to nursing as a second career. Formerly I was an attorney (I still have my license and am looking at ways to dust it off some day, but that's another story).

I was used to an office environment full of suits and, I came to realize, a level of professional respect. Nursing was not the same at all. Have you heard the expression "nurses eat their young"? It's real. Google it. Horizontal violence. Yes, that's another term. Compared to my professional lawyerly workplace where people could have a (relatively) calm, professional disagreement, nursing exemplifies sarcastic, blaming, backstabbing, passive aggressive behaviors at a level I had not experienced since the playground. These things are real. To just tell people to "grow up" seems pretty dismissive and certainly not very helpful.

You're technically correct that it's unreasonable for new nurses, exposed to the slings and arrows of nursing, to expect that other nurses, in general, should be nicer to them, or whatever. But, if someone has a problem with how another individual colleague they work with regularly is treating them, they should consider talking to that person to see if they can build a better relationship. When nurses have conflicts with other nurses, they talk about it with their buddies, tattle to management...they seem to talk to everyone EXCEPT the nurse they conflict with. I hope management at your facility does what they can to stamp out this counterproductive behavior. Nurses, especially ones who work together regularly, should work out their differences. As a lawyer, I don't have a problem approaching nurses who rarely irk me enough to justify it. Most of the time it works out well. For example, I report off to a nurse who is very energetic and interrupts a lot to jump ahead to ask questions about later items in my SBAR, which annoys me. She also can be a little oblivious of my time crunch (ie I'm trying to report off so I can clock out). During report she's going and messing with the pump to check and see when she needs to hang her next bag, writing her name on the white

board, etc. These tasks are distracting and can be done after we finish report. I think report should be devoted to introducing the new nurse, doing a thorough bedside report, a quick safety check of IVs, O2, etc. and that's it. Remember I need to do more reports and get out of here, yeah? I felt myself on more than one occasion getting irritated. Long story short: I talked to her about these things and it was a terrific, calm, discussion. She listened and has made a concerted effort to work on these things. Our working relationship improved. about it. My point is, although nursing is a tough kitchen to cook in, and although people need to be able to stand the heat, they also need to be empowered to stand up for themselves and demand some respect in appropriate instances.

Telling people they should just grow up and quit whining is not particularly helpful. What new nurses need to be is MENTORED. They need to be taught how to get their act together to avoid ******* off senior nurses. They need to be listened to. If they feel that people are bullying them, listen to them! Ultimately it's going to be their choice: either you're going to have to crank up your courage and find the right moment to go talk to this person directly, get help from your ANM (who hopefully will just say "you need to talk amongst yourselves), or just accept this behavior and let it roll off your back, try not to take it personally, etc.

I have a new nurse on my shift who I could see was struggling last night because she had that deer in the headlights look a few times. I had a slow night going, so I asked her repeatedly whether I could help. She thanked me, but said no. Then, about 10 min prior to the start of report, she said "well, you could draw a nurse collect for me." She knew about this HOURS ago. Did she **** me off? Yes. She said she just "forgot" to tell me earlier, which I can believe as a new nurse she genuinely did. What am I going to do about it? Well, first I went and drew her labs right quick. When I see her again tonight, I'm going to MENTOR her. I'm going to explain that because she does not want to forget stuff like this, she needs to use tools, such as a timeline for night shift, to help her stay organized. She needs to also not be shy about asking people to help her if she's overwhelmed, but do so in a way that is respectful of others' time. In short, I'm going to help her become a better nurse. As experienced nurses, this is what we all should do. That said, if you have a new nurse who is not progressing, they need to be taken under someone's wing. The behavior that needs to change needs to be identified (calmly and professionally and probably by a manager) so that it can be corrected. If the nurse still doesn't progress, maybe it's time to start helping them out the door.

Am I being clear here? Telling people to essentially grow up, quit whining, nursing is a gloves off job, just dismisses their legitimate frustration. Remember: nursing may be gloves off, but it is often that way because it's flipping dysfunctional! There IS horizontal violence, nurses DO eat their young. New nurses need to be empowered to stand up for themselves (in carefully chosen cases that justify it) and respectfully ask their colleagues to work on themselves, not just to suck it up.

Guest219794

2,453 Posts

Oh I totally get it now! It's not the rapist's fault you're being raped, it's your fault you are being raped. And it makes it totally okay because they are having a bad day!

Let's continue to victimize the bully and see where that gets us. 

Well, being rude to another nurse isn't really quite as bad as rape. And it is a questionable analogy, as being bullied has far more to do with the perception of the receiver of the action.

And what does it mean to "victimize the bully"?

Specializes in HH, Peds, Rehab, Clinical.

I didn't say that every instance was. Just that plenty of times an experienced, long term nurse actually is being a bully. We all know that it really does happen.

True. But not every case of "this big mean crusty old nurse is bullying me" is actually bullying.

TriciaJ, RN

4,328 Posts

Specializes in Psych, Corrections, Med-Surg, Ambulatory.
i agree with you, but I want to point out something in my workplace that I find even more concerning: new grads who never ask questions. They fly under the radar, and when I've followed them or helped out on a rapid response, the holes in their knowledge are very evident.

Everyone speaks of the new grads with too many questions, but we really need to talk about those nurses off orientation who never do.

The new grad who scares me most is the one who doesn't ask any questions; just makes up stuff as he/she goes along. I've seen some really dumb errors. Yes we all feel stupid asking questions, but when you're too stupid to even know you need to ask... That's a problem.

TriciaJ, RN

4,328 Posts

Specializes in Psych, Corrections, Med-Surg, Ambulatory.

I've been on both sides of the preceptor equation.

1. I've had instructors who actually were bullies. I just gritted my teeth and dealt with them, but to this day I have no respect for them.

2. I've had preceptors that swanned off to a 2 hr inservice and didn't even bother to tell me they were going off the floor. It was a nerve-wracking shift, but it did improve my self-confidence. I figured I must be doing ok if they trusted me with their patients that long.

3. I've been "fired" as a preceptor by a student who didn't "feel comfortable" with me. I wasn't mean to her; I just got her to do things she hadn't done before, like tally up intake and output. This was 3 months before her graduation. I was trying to save her from eventually being thrown to the wolves. Oh, well.

4. I've also been required to precept students without any feedback mechanism. At 1400 h they just left the floor for their post-conference without even checking in with me. I would find all kinds of errors and omissions. But there was no form to fill out, no instructor contact, nothing. No way to convey to the student areas of strength and weakness. I enjoy teaching but did not appreciate being used as an unpaid babysitter. (There was no preceptor pay for having a student.)

I think instructors and preceptors need to be tough without being bullies. I think students and new grads need to be tough. Nursing is a tough job.

FlyingScot, RN

2,016 Posts

Specializes in Peds/Neo CCT,Flight, ER, Hem/Onc.
When I see her again tonight, I'm going to MENTOR her. I'm going to explain that because she does not want to forget stuff like this, she needs to use tools, such as a timeline for night shift, to help her stay organized. She needs to also not be shy about asking people to help her if she's overwhelmed, but do so in a way that is respectful of others' time. In short, I'm going to help her become a better nurse. As experienced nurses, this is what we all should do. That said, if you have a new nurse who is not progressing, they need to be taken under someone's wing. The behavior that needs to change needs to be identified (calmly and professionally and probably by a manager) so that it can be corrected. If the nurse still doesn't progress, maybe it's time to start helping them out the door.

Tell us how that works out for you because I'm not alone in finding that many of these nurses have no interest in being mentored unless it means only being told what special little snowflakes they are. Case in point. I tell all of my preceptees that if I use the phrase " do you think you might want to" or " how about we" what that means is they are making a big mistake and need to stop and re-evaluate. You see my job is to teach yes but more importantly it is to provide care and protect my patients. I'm not there to abuse, bully or humiliate the new nurses. So imagine my dismay when one of them in response to one of my gentle warning phrases looked me straight in the eye and told me, in front of the patient, that I don't know what I'm doing because I am "old school". When I spoke to her later about the incident she became angry and blamed me for her not doing the procedure right despite the fact that I had explained it and run through it with her several times using several different teaching styles. I'm really over the eye-rolling, huffing, sighing and it's-everybody-else's-fault-I'm-failing attitudes that are becoming pervasive. I WANT to mentor new nurses. I WANT them to succeed. I WANT to be a good role model but good golly these people are making it difficult.