Sure to Get Flamed for This

[Kyrshamarks]

I am sure I am about to get flamed for posting this, but I feel the need to anyways. I have been seeing these threads talking about bullying and teachers or preceptors hating the students, and new nurses or abusing them because of some perceived slight or injustice. Well guess what?

The world is a hard cold nasty place that does not need to be polite to you or worry whether your feelings got hurt and you feel offended. You need to grow up and realize that the abuse that you claim is rampant, or the bullying that you experience all the time is not their problem, but rather your problem.

I see so many posts about this and I wonder how some of these people have survived as long as they have. School is tough? Deal with it. You think that someone else is getting it easier? Well too bad, they may be but no one ever promised you everything would be fair. You have to learn that there is inequality in life. It's how you overcome that inequality that matters. It teaches perseverance.

Abusive teachers? Maybe they are trying to get the best in you to come out. What you think is abuse maybe is pushing you to your limits, to get you further along in your potential. So your feelings got hurt at school, grow up, feelings get hurt every day.

Your preceptor is unorganized and does not like you and bad mouths you to your manager, and all your patients love you but no one at the hospital sees how great you really are?

Well your preceptor may actually have great time management skill, but when having to slow down and teach someone their job, things do tend to get disorganized. You may be part of the blame there.

Did you ever stop to think that you are the proverbial monkey wrench in a well oiled machine? The need to teach you, and I realize you do need to learn, can be very time consuming. They may tell your manager that you need improving or that you are not advancing fast enough. They may be all smiles to you, because they want to support you and keep you positive, but they need to tell the manager how you really are.

Speaking of orientation, how often have I seen statements that say the other nurses are not supportive and will not answer questions. Have you ever thought that maybe you are asking TOO MANY questions?

After a bit it may seem that you are not retaining the info provided and everyone gets tired of answering the same questions over and over. Part of learning is knowing when to shut your mouth and just watch. It has been said by people wiser than me that the only question you should ask is the question that you already know the answer to. If that does not make sense to you, think about it for a while and you might just be surprised that a light comes on.

So basically what i am saying is grow up and act like the adult that you are. Life is not fair, school is not fair, work is not fair. You just have to learn to deal with it.

[DedHedRN]

I've been in a nursing school where teachers told students not to sit next to black students. Said that they were on their way out anyways. Even though they were a straight A student. Said that Mexicans did not need to be taught how to breastfeed because they took to it naturally and it was in their genes because they were baby making machines. some nursing schools do have teachers that are running rampant on the students. The school i had originally gone to was paid millions of dollars to increase their class size, but what they did was kick out half the class each semester and bring in more students that way. Im sure its a scam. But it effected a lot of people. And made for an ugly ugly nursing school experience. I left that school and went to one that was still tough, but actually increased the class size so half the class did not get kicked out every semester.

[asiankid520]

hey Kyrshamarks,

you stated you work at kindred ICU. how many pt did you have? which kindred you work at? I recently got hired at kindred hospital full time nights-ICU position. alot of my friends told me that kindred is like a SNF. im worried because I worked in icu and i only get 2 max and some people told me they get 7. i hope that is not true cause i dont want 7 icu pt

[TLSpaz, ASN, RN]

Oh, and I'm also a little lost on "only ask the question you already know the answer to"........?

If I have resorted to asking a question I already know the answer to, you better watch out. It means I've caught you in a lie or in a scenario in which I know you are clueless, and I am about to give you just enough rope to hang yourself. I've done it to my kids, I've done it to subordinates and I've even done it to a preceptor on a couple of occasions.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

DELETE

[wooh, BSN, RN]

If one more person says that saying maybe you aren't being bullied is the same as blaming a rape victim, I'm going to scream. For the same reason that calling every interaction you don't feel met your expectations of civility and grace bullying.

Trying to claim a status as a victim when it doesn't apply is insulting and makes people second guess those who are truly victims.

False rape reports are rare, but used by folks such as George Will to claim there is no real rape problem. Rape is easy to identify based on the facts (you have sex and the other person didn't give you permission to have sex with them, that's rape.) Now the facts aren't always agreed to by the parties or admitted to by the parties. But there's a clear definition. While it's muddied with misnomers like "legitimate rape," there is an actual clear definition.

There is NOT a clear definition of bullying. Because of that, teenage girls that are **** shamed after being raped (#jadapose) are considered victims of the same act as being corrected by their preceptor with an exasperated tone of voice. Which is ridiculous.

If you're a true victim of bullying, a victim of true CRUELTY, you should be insulted by someone who claims they were bullied because that mean person doesn't say "good morning" to them.

Where the rape analogy may be a bit true is here: There are very few false allegations of rape, not nearly as many as Todd Akin would have you believe. But the few that there are make every rape victim have to prove their credibility. As for bullying, every person that claims to be a victim of bullying but really is just the "victim" of an interaction with someone that was having a bad day or a bad week or just didn't happen to like them, makes the true victims of bullying have to defend their credibility.

Nobody is claiming that bullying doesn't exist. Nobody is claiming that bullying doesn't sometimes exist in nursing. Nobody is claiming that bullying is a great thing that everyone should be doing.

What I believe OP and a few other notable posters around here, often the older and wiser ones, are trying to get across is this: Not every unpleasant interaction falls under the definition of bullying.

It is insulting to true victims of bullying to claim unpleasant behavior is bullying.

Nobody is "blaming the victim." What we are saying, is if you're a "victim" everywhere you go, you might need to look at your side of the interactions and reconsider what you define as "bullying."

And EVEN IF you are truly a victim of bullying, the fact of the matter is, bullying is not illegal. So let's make another rape analogy, you should have the right as a woman to walk through a frat party naked and drunk and not be raped. But I would still advise you to not do so. If you did and were raped, I would blame the rapist. But I'm still going to advise my friends to follow some safety precautions. It's not fair, but life's not fair and I want them to be safe. So if you want to avoid being bullied, instead of pointing fingers and saying life's not fair, take some advice from the older and wiser nurses here that have been yelled at by MDs at 2am for ridiculous reasons and dealt with far more crotchety people over the years than we can imagine and have survived being young nurses with minimal bite marks to become the crotchety old bats they are today.

[LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN]

If one more person says that saying maybe you aren't being bullied is the same as blaming a rape victim, I'm going to scream. For the same reason that calling every interaction you don't feel met your expectations of civility and grace bullying.

Trying to claim a status as a victim when it doesn't apply is insulting and makes people second guess those who are truly victims.

False rape reports are rare, but used by folks such as George Will to claim there is no real rape problem. Rape is easy to identify based on the facts (you have sex and the other person didn't give you permission to have sex with them, that's rape.) Now the facts aren't always agreed to by the parties or admitted to by the parties. But there's a clear definition. While it's muddied with misnomers like "legitimate rape," there is an actual clear definition.

There is NOT a clear definition of bullying. Because of that, teenage girls that are **** shamed after being raped (#jadapose) are considered victims of the same act as being corrected by their preceptor with an exasperated tone of voice. Which is ridiculous.

If you're a true victim of bullying, a victim of true CRUELTY, you should be insulted by someone who claims they were bullied because that mean person doesn't say "good morning" to them.

Where the rape analogy may be a bit true is here: There are very few false allegations of rape, not nearly as many as Todd Akin would have you believe. But the few that there are make every rape victim have to prove their credibility. As for bullying, every person that claims to be a victim of bullying but really is just the "victim" of an interaction with someone that was having a bad day or a bad week or just didn't happen to like them, makes the true victims of bullying have to defend their credibility.

Nobody is claiming that bullying doesn't exist. Nobody is claiming that bullying doesn't sometimes exist in nursing. Nobody is claiming that bullying is a great thing that everyone should be doing.

What I believe OP and a few other notable posters around here, often the older and wiser ones, are trying to get across is this: Not every unpleasant interaction falls under the definition of bullying.

It is insulting to true victims of bullying to claim unpleasant behavior is bullying.

Nobody is "blaming the victim." What we are saying, is if you're a "victim" everywhere you go, you might need to look at your side of the interactions and reconsider what you define as "bullying."

And EVEN IF you are truly a victim of bullying, the fact of the matter is, bullying is not illegal. So let's make another rape analogy, you should have the right as a woman to walk through a frat party naked and drunk and not be raped. But I would still advise you to not do so. If you did and were raped, I would blame the rapist. But I'm still going to advise my friends to follow some safety precautions. It's not fair, but life's not fair and I want them to be safe. So if you want to avoid being bullied, instead of pointing fingers and saying life's not fair, take some advice from the older and wiser nurses here that have been yelled at by MDs at 2am for ridiculous reasons and dealt with far more crotchety people over the years than we can imagine and have survived being young nurses with minimal bite marks to become the crotchety old bats they are today.

:yes:!!!!

I grow tired of the "your blaming the victim" quote sometimes spouted off by posters...it gets tiresome from a survivor that has learned and successfully battled for empowerment...it really does, especially when no one is "blaming" anyone; asking people to exercising accountability and mindfulness while analyzing highly charged emotional situations is not "blaming", it's exactly the opposite, even if one cannot communicate effectively enough on a message board or in person.

Another post I wish I can like MORE.

[jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B]

Here's the thing. When one is in a higher level of education, it is something that is paid for. At sometimes a very steep price. There are people who put in a great deal of effort, and can't seem to do anything "correctly". Which in the case of clinicals, can be subjective. If it is not working, then as a consumer, one has the right to change classes, heck, even schools. An expectation would be that one gets what they are paying for.

Bullying at work--guess what? As an adult professional in a work setting, even a high tension work setting, the expectation should be that we all are there to work. Not get all emotionally tangled into a bucketload of foolishness that has absolutely nothing to do with patient care.

Things in life/school/work may not be fair, but lets make it equal. And often is has not a thing to do with "growing up" but everything to do with getting what one pays for, orienting as efficiently as possible, and leaving work at the door on your way out, and who one is a person outside of work, well, outside of work.

[jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B]

But there ARE plenty of times when it is actual bullying. Even if the aggressor would like to call it constructive criticism...

And aggressive people are the fault of the aggressor. And little do I see someone who admits to being aggressive and inappropriate in a school or work setting. Which can be and is just as much of an issue as someone feeling put upon or downed.

People shouldn't have to put up with someone else's bad behavior as adults. So we say "grow up and get thicker skin" however, if aggressors put their own house in order, no one should have to.

[kungpoopanda]

What inspired you to write that? I would bet you're not a parent.

Here's my perspective. I came to nursing as a second career. Formerly I was an attorney (I still have my license and am looking at ways to dust it off some day, but that's another story).

I was used to an office environment full of suits and, I came to realize, a level of professional respect. Nursing was not the same at all. Have you heard the expression "nurses eat their young"? It's real. Google it. Horizontal violence. Yes, that's another term. Compared to my professional lawyerly workplace where people could have a (relatively) calm, professional disagreement, nursing exemplifies sarcastic, blaming, backstabbing, passive aggressive behaviors at a level I had not experienced since the playground. These things are real. To just tell people to "grow up" seems pretty dismissive and certainly not very helpful.

You're technically correct that it's unreasonable for new nurses, exposed to the slings and arrows of nursing, to expect that other nurses, in general, should be nicer to them, or whatever. But, if someone has a problem with how another individual colleague they work with regularly is treating them, they should consider talking to that person to see if they can build a better relationship. When nurses have conflicts with other nurses, they talk about it with their buddies, tattle to management...they seem to talk to everyone EXCEPT the nurse they conflict with. I hope management at your facility does what they can to stamp out this counterproductive behavior. Nurses, especially ones who work together regularly, should work out their differences. As a lawyer, I don't have a problem approaching nurses who rarely irk me enough to justify it. Most of the time it works out well. For example, I report off to a nurse who is very energetic and interrupts a lot to jump ahead to ask questions about later items in my SBAR, which annoys me. She also can be a little oblivious of my time crunch (ie I'm trying to report off so I can clock out). During report she's going and messing with the pump to check and see when she needs to hang her next bag, writing her name on the white

board, etc. These tasks are distracting and can be done after we finish report. I think report should be devoted to introducing the new nurse, doing a thorough bedside report, a quick safety check of IVs, O2, etc. and that's it. Remember I need to do more reports and get out of here, yeah? I felt myself on more than one occasion getting irritated. Long story short: I talked to her about these things and it was a terrific, calm, discussion. She listened and has made a concerted effort to work on these things. Our working relationship improved. about it. My point is, although nursing is a tough kitchen to cook in, and although people need to be able to stand the heat, they also need to be empowered to stand up for themselves and demand some respect in appropriate instances.

Telling people they should just grow up and quit whining is not particularly helpful. What new nurses need to be is MENTORED. They need to be taught how to get their act together to avoid ******* off senior nurses. They need to be listened to. If they feel that people are bullying them, listen to them! Ultimately it's going to be their choice: either you're going to have to crank up your courage and find the right moment to go talk to this person directly, get help from your ANM (who hopefully will just say "you need to talk amongst yourselves), or just accept this behavior and let it roll off your back, try not to take it personally, etc.

I have a new nurse on my shift who I could see was struggling last night because she had that deer in the headlights look a few times. I had a slow night going, so I asked her repeatedly whether I could help. She thanked me, but said no. Then, about 10 min prior to the start of report, she said "well, you could draw a nurse collect for me." She knew about this HOURS ago. Did she **** me off? Yes. She said she just "forgot" to tell me earlier, which I can believe as a new nurse she genuinely did. What am I going to do about it? Well, first I went and drew her labs right quick. When I see her again tonight, I'm going to MENTOR her. I'm going to explain that because she does not want to forget stuff like this, she needs to use tools, such as a timeline for night shift, to help her stay organized. She needs to also not be shy about asking people to help her if she's overwhelmed, but do so in a way that is respectful of others' time. In short, I'm going to help her become a better nurse. As experienced nurses, this is what we all should do. That said, if you have a new nurse who is not progressing, they need to be taken under someone's wing. The behavior that needs to change needs to be identified (calmly and professionally and probably by a manager) so that it can be corrected. If the nurse still doesn't progress, maybe it's time to start helping them out the door.

Am I being clear here? Telling people to essentially grow up, quit whining, nursing is a gloves off job, just dismisses their legitimate frustration. Remember: nursing may be gloves off, but it is often that way because it's flipping dysfunctional! There IS horizontal violence, nurses DO eat their young. New nurses need to be empowered to stand up for themselves (in carefully chosen cases that justify it) and respectfully ask their colleagues to work on themselves, not just to suck it up.

This is the best post I have read on AN. It contains the secret to solving many of nursing's problems.

[TU RN, DNP, CRNA]

This isn't an original thread. Or even an original topic. Others have made threads like this before. Seems more like an attention-seeking whine actually. Why else title the thread "sure to get flamed for this"? Are you happy, OP, that your whine post is just as pointless as those who whine about being bullied? You're the same as them. Treat others with the same respect you'd want for yourself. I suggest that you follow your own advice: grow up and act like the adult that you are.

[ThePrincessBride, MSN, RN, NP]

No one is saying rape and bullying are on the same level, but the op's post reeks of similar sentiments as those found in rape culture. You got raped? Maybe you were leading him on. You got raped? Maybe you shouldn't have worn that tight mini-skirt. You are being bullied? Maybe it is because you are weak. You are being bullied? Your problem. Get over it.

It puts onus on the target and not the perpetrator, an approach that I strongly disagree with. Instead we need to hold higher standards: instead of teaching being not to "get raped/bullied", we need to teach people not to rape or bully others.

That being said, some people are too sensitive and may misconstrued constructive criticism as bullying. However, when lateral violence does occur, it needs to be addressed and the accountability should be squarely on those misbehaving.

If one more person says that saying maybe you aren't being bullied is the same as blaming a rape victim, I'm going to scream. For the same reason that calling every interaction you don't feel met your expectations of civility and grace bullying.

Trying to claim a status as a victim when it doesn't apply is insulting and makes people second guess those who are truly victims.

False rape reports are rare, but used by folks such as George Will to claim there is no real rape problem. Rape is easy to identify based on the facts (you have sex and the other person didn't give you permission to have sex with them, that's rape.) Now the facts aren't always agreed to by the parties or admitted to by the parties. But there's a clear definition. While it's muddied with misnomers like "legitimate rape," there is an actual clear definition.

There is NOT a clear definition of bullying. Because of that, teenage girls that are **** shamed after being raped (#jadapose) are considered victims of the same act as being corrected by their preceptor with an exasperated tone of voice. Which is ridiculous.

If you're a true victim of bullying, a victim of true CRUELTY, you should be insulted by someone who claims they were bullied because that mean person doesn't say "good morning" to them.

Where the rape analogy may be a bit true is here: There are very few false allegations of rape, not nearly as many as Todd Akin would have you believe. But the few that there are make every rape victim have to prove their credibility. As for bullying, every person that claims to be a victim of bullying but really is just the "victim" of an interaction with someone that was having a bad day or a bad week or just didn't happen to like them, makes the true victims of bullying have to defend their credibility.

Nobody is claiming that bullying doesn't exist. Nobody is claiming that bullying doesn't sometimes exist in nursing. Nobody is claiming that bullying is a great thing that everyone should be doing.

What I believe OP and a few other notable posters around here, often the older and wiser ones, are trying to get across is this: Not every unpleasant interaction falls under the definition of bullying.

It is insulting to true victims of bullying to claim unpleasant behavior is bullying.

Nobody is "blaming the victim." What we are saying, is if you're a "victim" everywhere you go, you might need to look at your side of the interactions and reconsider what you define as "bullying."

And EVEN IF you are truly a victim of bullying, the fact of the matter is, bullying is not illegal. So let's make another rape analogy, you should have the right as a woman to walk through a frat party naked and drunk and not be raped. But I would still advise you to not do so. If you did and were raped, I would blame the rapist. But I'm still going to advise my friends to follow some safety precautions. It's not fair, but life's not fair and I want them to be safe. So if you want to avoid being bullied, instead of pointing fingers and saying life's not fair, take some advice from the older and wiser nurses here that have been yelled at by MDs at 2am for ridiculous reasons and dealt with far more crotchety people over the years than we can imagine and have survived being young nurses with minimal bite marks to become the crotchety old bats they are today.

[ThePrincessBride, MSN, RN, NP]

Oh and by the way, bullying can most certainly be considered illegal. Remember the one college kid who was bullied and humiliated for his sexuality? He jumped off a bridge and the people who targeted him most certainly were held responsible.