ATI Appeal

[sparklenshine1210]

Hi all,

I go to a nursing college that integrates ATI into our curriculum. My most recent class that I took was Nursing care of children- my average text exam score was an 80%, I passed my clinical with a Satisfactory, and I did excellent on all of my class assignments but what took the most difficulty was the ATI final proctored exam. Our school requires us to get a level 2 (63.3) to pass the entire class, so even if you recieved an overall A in the class you would fail if you did not pass this test. We are given 2 tries to pass the test and the first try I received a 55.5. After a week long of studying the provided ATI book (read it thoroughly twice), studying class notes, reviewing the Nurse Logic testing strategies, and going through practice tests/ focused review I received a 61.7 (1.4 or 1 question short of passing. After meeting with my course coordinator I was informed that I would not be passing the class due to the 1 question that I missed. I am currently writing an appeal letter that is to be sent to the dean of the nursing department and the dean of the school. Does anyone have any pointers for this letter? Any past experiences from the ATI testing? Any scholarly journals that can support my appeal? Also, (worst case scenario) is there any nursing colleges that would accept my current nursing credits so that I could still graduate by next year?

I'm currently put in a difficult situation because my school only offers this class once a year, so not only will I have to wait til next year to take the class again, but I will not be allowed to take any other nursing classes at my school next year, and I will have to put off graduation for another year.

[GracyMae]

In this case it does. ATI is a national program that many schools use, with the ATI exams used as a guideline for progression through their program. Many students pass the exams just fine, yet the ones who do not want to whine and blame the school for the unfairness. In the case of the school using ATI, they are right. It's a part of their program that you signed up for. It's like signing up for a math class and being angry that there's math problems on the exams. Once again, take responsibility for your education and quit looking to place the blame on everyone else.

You're totally missing my point ....

Maybe I explained it better in my other post.

Otherwise, nevermind.

[phuretrotr]

In this case it does. ATI is a national program that many schools use, with the ATI exams used as a guideline for progression through their program. Many students pass the exams just fine, yet the ones who do not want to whine and blame the school for the unfairness. In the case of the school using ATI, they are right. It's a part of their program that you signed up for. It's like signing up for a math class and being angry that there's math problems on the exams. Once again, take responsibility for your education and quit looking to place the blame on everyone else.

1. If ATI were used as a guideline for progression, would not the school teach solely ATI information? You cannot measure progression of a nursing class with an exit nursing exam. I think many schools use ATI as a way to get students to understand the nursing process and critical thinking, which is a good idea for NCLEX. However, if for example, the school expects students to know lab values and ATI is required to pass, the school should teach ATI values not the values the school goes by. If the school believes that their values are more correct than ATI, ATI should not be a make it or break it point, OR those questions that differ in answer than what the school provides should be thrown out.

2. If "many students pass the exams just fine," I find it odd that many post about the unfairness of ATI. If it were not a problem, I am sure every school would use ATI.

3. Math problems on a math exam is a given. NCLEX level questions for a 1st semester class is not.

4. Finally, the school needs to take some responsibility for teaching students about ATI. Would you be angry if your nursing instructor threw you a med-surg book, told you, you need to know it for the test in 2 months, then went on to talk about Nursing history for those 2 months. Then, when the test came, you failed it, therefore failed the test. I think everyone would be a little upset because the instructor failed to go through ATI at all in the class, therefore you have to learn about Nursing history again, even though Nursing history had nothing to do with ATI.

Not saying you're wrong, but not saying you're right either. I agree with GracyMae in that the penalty for not passing ATI should be reduced, such as awarding points for passing, and not awarding points for failing but having to do a remediation.

[GracyMae]

1. If ATI were used as a guideline for progression, would not the school teach solely ATI information? You cannot measure progression of a nursing class with an exit nursing exam. I think many schools use ATI as a way to get students to understand the nursing process and critical thinking, which is a good idea for NCLEX. However, if for example, the school expects students to know lab values and ATI is required to pass, the school should teach ATI values not the values the school goes by. If the school believes that their values are more correct than ATI, ATI should not be a make it or break it point, OR those questions that differ in answer than what the school provides should be thrown out.

2. If "many students pass the exams just fine," I find it odd that many post about the unfairness of ATI. If it were not a problem, I am sure every school would use ATI.

3. Math problems on a math exam is a given. NCLEX level questions for a 1st semester class is not.

4. Finally, the school needs to take some responsibility for teaching students about ATI. Would you be angry if your nursing instructor threw you a med-surg book, told you, you need to know it for the test in 2 months, then went on to talk about Nursing history for those 2 months. Then, when the test came, you failed it, therefore failed the test. I think everyone would be a little upset because the instructor failed to go through ATI at all in the class, therefore you have to learn about Nursing history again, even though Nursing history had nothing to do with ATI.

Not saying you're wrong, but not saying you're right either. I agree with GracyMae in that the penalty for not passing ATI should be reduced, such as awarding points for passing, and not awarding points for failing but having to do a remediation.

EXACTLY!

I'm not against ATI - I think their practice assessments and many things they offer are wonderful tools for nursing students. I don't disagree with nursing schools using ATI as a benchmarking tool to see where students are in their progress. I don't disagree with nursing schools using ATI for their own accreditation purposes. But, to gauge whether or not the students can move forward in or graduate from the school's program based on their ATI performance instead of their school performance, while at the SAME time NOT taking any responsibility for actually teaching ATI information is absurd and unreasonable.

Students can pass all of their classes, yet schools can deny students their degrees if they don't reach a certain level on a test that can SUPPOSEDLY predict whether or not they can pass the NCLEX?? I know several people who passed the ATI predictor test but ended up failing NCLEX miserably. NCLEX is for licensure. Licensure is AFTER graduation. Call me crazy, but I think it is wrong for a school to deny a passing student their diploma just because one test supposedly (and possibly inaccurately) predicts that they won't be able to pass the NCLEX at a future time. Schools do it to protect their image for NCLEX pass rates (for accreditaion and funding purposes), but it is wrong.

For those who want to just write it off as "whining" and "not taking responsibility" - read the ENTIRE content of all posts. I have not personally failed any ATI or class. I am simply presenting a valid argument against a flawed system of measurement in SOME nursing schools (not all schools do it this way) in need of serious reconsideration and revision. I am simply validating the frustration of the people I know who have dealt with the particular situation that was presented by Sparkleshine1201 in the original post. That's all. Thanks.

[JustBeachyNurse, LPN]

This is why some boards of nursing have taken action, like this from NJ BoN that was made effective this past fall:

http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/nursing/DeanNDirectorLtr.pdf

Schools of nursing in NJ cannot use a commercially prepared exit exam (whether HESI, ATI or other exam) as an artificial barrier to graduation or progression in the program.

[GracyMae]

this is why some boards of nursing have taken action, like this from nj bon that was made effective this past fall:

http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/nursing/deanndirectorltr.pdf

schools of nursing in nj cannot use a commercially prepared exit exam (whether hesi, ati or other exam) as an artificial barrier to graduation or progression in the program.

thank you for posting this!!

[nurseprnRN, BSN, RN]

However, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't actively seek out learning outside of your classroom and clinicals. Believe me, if you don't get the life-long intellectual curiosity, love of learning habit while you are in school you will begin to fall behind the day you graduate. I believe somebody posted how unfair it was that the exam tested material you didn't have in lecture and you had to study on your own. Bingo. Guess what? Your jobs will test you, daily, on things you didn't learn in school, and you will have to study on your own to pass as a nurse (little pun there).

This does not mean that your nursing school failed to teach you everything you need to know to be a nurse. It means that using critical thinking in the nursing process (assess, evaluate, analyze, and develop a plan of action) is THE most important thing you will learn, because that's what you will hang all your subsequent learning on.

[GracyMae]

However, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't actively seek out learning outside of your classroom and clinicals. Believe me, if you don't get the life-long intellectual curiosity, love of learning habit while you are in school you will begin to fall behind the day you graduate. I believe somebody posted how unfair it was that the exam tested material you didn't have in lecture and you had to study on your own. Bingo. Guess what? Your jobs will test you, daily, on things you didn't learn in school, and you will have to study on your own to pass as a nurse (little pun there).

This does not mean that your nursing school failed to teach you everything you need to know to be a nurse. It means that using critical thinking in the nursing process (assess, evaluate, analyze, and develop a plan of action) is THE most important thing you will learn, because that's what you will hang all your subsequent learning on.

Absolutely! A nursing school cannot and will not teach their students everything they are going to need to know as nurses. That's a given. The uncountable things nurses come to know over time come from too many sources to list. But, that is not the issue being discussed here. I agree with you on consulting sources outside of what nursing schools provide - I am always seeking to know more and more from many different sources. Constantly. You can never learn too much. :)

[rubato, ASN, RN]

Your comment comes across as being condescending and snarky and not really constructive, well-meaning, or helpful at all. Just because a nursing school decides on a certain way of doing things does not make it right and does not even make it make sense - AND ... has nothing to do with how the "world of adults works."

Sorry you see it that way, but here's the point. She knew what the expectations were going into this semester. She didn't meet them. It matters not that they changed the rules on her last semester. It matters not that ATI is a good or bad idea. She was given the guidelines for what would be required in order to pass the semester. She did not meet those expectations.

My comment does not have to be constructive or helpful in your sense. It was intended to highlight that maybe, just maybe, this is just life, and you're going to have to live with the consequences of not meeting the guidelines of your school. This will follow you into the real world. It's just the way that it is.

[zbb13]

I have taken several ATI exams and scored a Level 3 in all. Do I imagine this means I will pass NCLEX with 75 questions? NO! Absolutely not!

Because our school doesn't incorporate the ATI into the classroom (yet--we started ATI this past year), I was forced to study the ATI book prior to the ATI exams, on my own time. I did not find the ATI exams congruent with much I learned in the classroom. And in fact, they didn't have much to do with the ATI books EITHER. The exams didn't even resemble the practice assessments they give. I am having a very hard time imagining students have raised their NCLEX results based on studying ATI (ATI ads do more than suggest that schools who have contracted with them have raised their NCLEX pass rates). I think the entire experience has been a giant waste of my money.

I truly feel bad for anyone who doesn't succeed at ATI and therefore is failed from a class or a program. If you scored well on your school exams and couldn't pass ATI, then your school has a problem. If you weren't doing well in school to begin with, then unfortunately I think there is something lacking in your preparation and ability.

If students pass the core requirements for a nursing program, let them take NCLEX. If the administration is not confident their students can succeed, those students shouldn't have passed the nursing classes to begin with.

[GracyMae]

Your comment comes across as being condescending and snarky and not really constructive, well-meaning, or helpful at all. Just because a nursing school decides on a certain way of doing things does not make it right and does not even make it make sense - AND ... has nothing to do with how the "world of adults works."

Sorry you see it that way, but here's the point. She knew what the expectations were going into this semester. She didn't meet them. It matters not that they changed the rules on her last semester. It matters not that ATI is a good or bad idea. She was given the guidelines for what would be required in order to pass the semester. She did not meet those expectations.

My comment does not have to be constructive or helpful in your sense. It was intended to highlight that maybe, just maybe, this is just life, and you're going to have to live with the consequences of not meeting the guidelines of your school. This will follow you into the real world. It's just the way that it is.

Yes. You are correct - your comment doesn't HAVE to be constructive or helpful or anything - it can be just as condescending and judgmental and as stating-the-obvious and as unhelpful as you want it to be.

However, just because something is a policy somewhere doesn't make it a good policy - doesn't make it something that people should just sit back and blindly accept because, "Oh well! That is the way the world is!" The fact of the matter is, Sparkleshine1210 wants to file an appeal. Like many of the students at my school, she probably did not understand how utterly nonsensical the ATI policy was until she got on the wrong side of it. So, she wants to try to make a change because she sees an injustice happening. And she apparently is not being unreasonable because apparently it IS an injustice, or else New Jersey Board of Nursing would not have done what they did when they ruled that ATI and other exit exams could no longer be used as artificial bars against graduation and sitting for the NCLEX. Obviously, the New Jersey students took a stand and look what it got them - CHANGE. Yes, the world is the way it is, but when people take a chance and go out on a limb to try to get unreasonable policies or anything else changed, that should not be shot down by people who just want to put their head in the sand or lay down and let bad policies steamroll over them because they've given up and succumbed to the belief that you're not supposed to try to change anything because somewhere along the line, they agreed to be governed by something that doesn't make any sense or because "that's just life." No, that's just sad

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

[GracyMae]

I have taken several ATI exams and scored a Level 3 in all. Do I imagine this means I will pass NCLEX with 75 questions? NO! Absolutely not!

Because our school doesn't incorporate the ATI into the classroom (yet--we started ATI this past year), I was forced to study the ATI book prior to the ATI exams, on my own time. I did not find the ATI exams congruent with much I learned in the classroom. And in fact, they didn't have much to do with the ATI books EITHER. The exams didn't even resemble the practice assessments they give. I am having a very hard time imagining students have raised their NCLEX results based on studying ATI (ATI ads do more than suggest that schools who have contracted with them have raised their NCLEX pass rates). I think the entire experience has been a giant waste of my money.

I truly feel bad for anyone who doesn't succeed at ATI and therefore is failed from a class or a program. If you scored well on your school exams and couldn't pass ATI, then your school has a problem. If you weren't doing well in school to begin with, then unfortunately I think there is something lacking in your preparation and ability.

If students pass the core requirements for a nursing program, let them take NCLEX. If the administration is not confident their students can succeed, those students shouldn't have passed the nursing classes to begin with.

YES! EXACTLY! AMEN to that!!!!!

[phuretrotr]

This does not mean that your nursing school failed to teach you everything you need to know to be a nurse. It means that using critical thinking in the nursing process (assess, evaluate, analyze, and develop a plan of action) is THE most important thing you will learn, because that's what you will hang all your subsequent learning on.

I 100% agree with you on this. That is why ATI should only be used for learning purposes, not exit exam and pass standards. ATI tells you what the 5 processes names are, but that's about it. The only section that goes in depth at all is implementation, which is needed of course because that is the nurses duties. ATI books are extensive and carry a lot of information. ATI practice tests are fairly put together, but give barely any rationale. An example that would be an ATI rationale is, "Choice B is incorrect because choice C is more correct." Seriously? That teaches me absolutely nothing. Then when you have gone over the practice test a few times and manually sifted through your book to find the slightest, real rationale, you get to the ATI test and there are loads of questions about delegation, medications (herbal remedies included), example situations that can vary far more than the question/background gives you. Nothing in that ATI book tells me what precautions I should use in jail.

I don't know if you have ever taken an ATI test, or maybe you teach and use ATI, but it is outlandish. I know they ask these questions because ATI is all about critically thinking, but you need some type of knowledge of the content for you to even have a clue as to what the answer is.

Example: You're a L&D nurse, have been for 37 years. All of a sudden, you place of work wants everyone to have a mandatory test for every nurse to make sure they are competent enough to continue working for them. If you fail, you are fired. So you go to the test thinking, I got this, I studied for all the L&D stuff anyone could imagine and I'm practically an expert after 37 years. WRONG! The test is filled with cardiac drugs, developmental milestones for children of all ages, and neuro diseases such as Dementia. It's just not right.

You have been around here far long than me and probably in the real world, and I respect you and your opinions as a more experienced nurse, which is why you understanding how schools use ATI at an attempt to raise their NCLEX pass rates is plain unfair. I understand you think a minimum is a minimum, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, which I support too, but ATI shouldn't have a minimum.