Why is it... (nurses constantly throw jabs at physicans) - page 4

Let me preface this by saying I am around nurses, and nursing students more so I don't get to hear the other side but that being said..... Why do nurses constantly feel the need to throw jabs at... Read More

  1. by   ProfRN4
    I'm going to venture to guess that you did not know anyone who is a nurse (friends or family), or you fortunately never had a loved one in the hospital. I say this beause if you did, you'd probably have a different respect for nurses. Parents (or other family members) usually are the ones who say how the nurses were the ones who did everything. We are there 24hrs, the docs are there for a bit less, to say the least. BTW, what are you learning all this stuff for if all we do is take orders from the doctors?

    I blame this, in part to nursing education. We are taught "everything you do requires a doctors order", as if we have no ability to think for ourselves, or to make a decision. Believe it or not, you WILL be doing things without orders, and you WILL be telling some of the MDs what orders you need.

    I hope that you have the experience of working in a teaching hospital, as you will appreciate why many of us feel this way. It is for good reason: they graduate med school, having never touched a patient, ( I don't think they go to skills lab either), and are told to be on-call for the night. if they are smart (common sense smart), they will ask for your input. If they're not, they will look through the chart and see what they ordered the last time the pt. had this problem. And in most instances they will not call their senior (or chief or attending), because they don't want to be perceived as incompetent. I've seen this with fellows as well, which is even more frightening. Some of them are great, most are not. They are learning. The sad part is they are learning at the expense of the patient, and their instructor or preceptor is not standing behind them.

    I'll refrain from comment on the subordination comment. :angryfire
  2. by   mattsmom81
    Quote from NP2BE
    I don't think I am properly communicating my point, so lets just end this. I have just heard so many hateful and in many cases idiotic thing since I have done my rotations and been in school, and perhaps if you heard what I heard, you might understand what I am getting at. I was not in anyway trying to be offensive but some people on this board have in frustration broke down and resorted to name calling instead of either moving on or trying to understand what I was getting at. I love the field of nursing, I have met some of the coolest people since my journey has begun, I have also seen some ridulousness, that of which I was trying to address here.
    Good luck to you in your journey. Please try to remember you are journeying with comembers of the human race, who work under very difficult conditions many times, with little support. A lot of responsibility with little authority. Remember coping mechanisms from developmental psych? Well,you will understand the venting you hear after you've gotten a few years under your belt..and after you get away from the ivory tower and into the trenches. Who told you nurses 'should' be perfect deity on earth?? Hate to bust the bubble... but nurses are fallible (so are some of the vindictive, petty, egotitstical docs I work with)...subject to the same vices and imperfection as the rest of God's creatures.
  3. by   DOCS RN
    PLEASE.........gow up.
  4. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    (What is gow?)
  5. by   Tweety
    I work at a teaching hospital with a resident program and see resident bashing occasionally. I think that is so hypocritical and doesn't start the MD's off on a good relationship with us. The residents bend over backwards to be nice and profressional to us, at least at this facility.
    Last edit by Tweety on May 22, '04
  6. by   SmilingBluEyes
    agreed, Tweety. It is DEFINATELY a two way street!
  7. by   mjamesRN
    I've never felt subordinate to doctors. I give them the respect they deserve and expect the same from them, and usually get that respect without asking for it. Healthcare today is a "Corroboration" -- nobody is above anybody. Nurses who suggest doctors "know more than we do" are only slighting themselves and are representing themselves as the very thing nurses have been trying to dispel throughout this century: that we are pawns. Doctors treat organisms; nurses treat human beings. Afterall, we see responses to treatment firsthand. This makes us first defense in healing and this should also be a continual learning mechanism for nurses. In a way, we fill in the guesswork of doctors and are indeed the checks and balances of the field, and because we are this we have right to put a physician in their place if they disrespect you.

    Admittedly, the hospital industry is falling on its *** more and more with every passing day because they are being run by money people rather than caring people; hence the nurses are being driven out by the bureaucracy who cannot possibly truly understand the stress of our work but continue to expect us to perform to their business-driven guidelines. Unfortunately many physicians have been falling into this money-wheel for many years now.

    There is a great joke that was going around before I left the hospital:

    What's the difference between a doctor and God?
    God doesn't think he's a doctor.

    And as far as residents go, a wonderful nurse I worked with had the best line for a snotty-nosed resident who was pushing her buttons:

    "Excuse me...doctor? I'm done school."
  8. by   moia
    I think the problem here is because you are a student you have yet to come into contact with a doctor as one professional to another.
    In school your teachers are your superiors, you are following a completely different chain of command and I think you may be projecting a bit...you are regimented quite tightly as a student and you feel subordinate to everyone right now because you have no power.
    Once you complete your training and pass your exam and get your licence you will begin to realize you don't have the luxury of thinking like this anymore.
    Yes...I said LUXURY...as a student your responsibilites and commitments are nominal...once you get a job this all will become clear.
    Right now it's comforting to think that you are just a cog in the wheel and that all you need to do is follow the orders of the doc and you will be fine.
    This is why so many talk about culture or reality shock...when you become a real nurse with a real job it will become terrifyingly real that your job is your own...you can't hide behind a doctor, it's all up to you to make life and death decisions.


    We complain about doctors because they don't carry half the responsibilty we do...I know that seems wrong and you still think the doctor is running the show...but they don't.
    A doctor may see a patient for 5 minutes on a morning round...they may not even do a cursory assessment...the nurse is the ONLY one with complete responsibility 24 hours a day...every choice we make every minute of the day impacts our patients,

    The doctor relies totally on the nurse.....if we miss something, if we forget something ,if we make a mistake it's all our responsibilty.

    I cannot use words to make you understand, you must live it yourself to understand what being a nurse means...your teachers aren't going to tell you...you would run screaming from the room.

    You will remember this conversation on the day when you are suddenly overwhelmed with the realization all these lives are in your hands and it will take more time than your patient has to call a doctor and have him lift this responsibility.

    You are clinging tightly to the idea you won't be alone, that someone smarter or more responsible will be there..you may want to start letting go of that idea soon.

    We complain about doctors because they have the luxury of relying totally on us and they don't give us the respect that reliance should command.
    We complain because that reliance has given alot of doctors a strange sense of complacency...they have had it too good for too long and some don't respond with the urgency necessary. We complain because our patients are on the ward when 10 years ago they would be in the ICU...we complain because new mothers are discharged too soon, we are doing surgery in outpatient clinics that 10 years ago would be a 2 week hospital stay.
    Doctors aren't seeing the acuity because we are damn good at what we have had to do and sometimes it makes us crazy that alot of doctors are now expecting us to just do more and more with less and less.
    Acuity has become so high doctors don't even see it any more..they just expect us to suck it up and handle it without bothering them.

    You have nothing to compare your practice to..for you as a student all your resposibilty lies with making your clinical instructor happy...soon you will have a really tough boss...patients and families..they don't care if you know the patho or can a write a care plan...you wont care about a care plan either..you will be way to busy.

    And yes you will be complaining about the doctors too because you will understand we aren't a team no matter what it says in the books or the philosophy of your hospital...those patients are yours and anyone who is making it harder for you to carry that load is going to be on your s**t list.
  9. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent"---Eleanor Roosevelt.
  10. by   gypsyatheart
    Awesome, awesome post, moia! I mean really, isn't this what it's all about?? Student nurses would run screaming from the room if they knew the real truth of the matter/the "reality" of nursing! Well, at least half of them would! LOL
    Thing is, you really can't impress upon someone the "reality" of a situation, when it's something they have to "live" for themselves.....



    Quote from moia
    I think the problem here is because you are a student you have yet to come into contact with a doctor as one professional to another.
    In school your teachers are your superiors, you are following a completely different chain of command and I think you may be projecting a bit...you are regimented quite tightly as a student and you feel subordinate to everyone right now because you have no power.
    Once you complete your training and pass your exam and get your licence you will begin to realize you don't have the luxury of thinking like this anymore.
    Yes...I said LUXURY...as a student your responsibilites and commitments are nominal...once you get a job this all will become clear.
    Right now it's comforting to think that you are just a cog in the wheel and that all you need to do is follow the orders of the doc and you will be fine.
    This is why so many talk about culture or reality shock...when you become a real nurse with a real job it will become terrifyingly real that your job is your own...you can't hide behind a doctor, it's all up to you to make life and death decisions.


    We complain about doctors because they don't carry half the responsibilty we do...I know that seems wrong and you still think the doctor is running the show...but they don't.
    A doctor may see a patient for 5 minutes on a morning round...they may not even do a cursory assessment...the nurse is the ONLY one with complete responsibility 24 hours a day...every choice we make every minute of the day impacts our patients,

    The doctor relies totally on the nurse.....if we miss something, if we forget something ,if we make a mistake it's all our responsibilty.

    I cannot use words to make you understand, you must live it yourself to understand what being a nurse means...your teachers aren't going to tell you...you would run screaming from the room.

    You will remember this conversation on the day when you are suddenly overwhelmed with the realization all these lives are in your hands and it will take more time than your patient has to call a doctor and have him lift this responsibility.

    You are clinging tightly to the idea you won't be alone, that someone smarter or more responsible will be there..you may want to start letting go of that idea soon.

    We complain about doctors because they have the luxury of relying totally on us and they don't give us the respect that reliance should command.
    We complain because that reliance has given alot of doctors a strange sense of complacency...they have had it too good for too long and some don't respond with the urgency necessary. We complain because our patients are on the ward when 10 years ago they would be in the ICU...we complain because new mothers are discharged too soon, we are doing surgery in outpatient clinics that 10 years ago would be a 2 week hospital stay.
    Doctors aren't seeing the acuity because we are damn good at what we have had to do and sometimes it makes us crazy that alot of doctors are now expecting us to just do more and more with less and less.
    Acuity has become so high doctors don't even see it any more..they just expect us to suck it up and handle it without bothering them.

    You have nothing to compare your practice to..for you as a student all your resposibilty lies with making your clinical instructor happy...soon you will have a really tough boss...patients and families..they don't care if you know the patho or can a write a care plan...you wont care about a care plan either..you will be way to busy.

    And yes you will be complaining about the doctors too because you will understand we aren't a team no matter what it says in the books or the philosophy of your hospital...those patients are yours and anyone who is making it harder for you to carry that load is going to be on your s**t list.
  11. by   ProfRN4
    Moia, you said it so well. You should have that published.
  12. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I agree, Moia, your post really does "tell it like it is". Nursing wannabees, wannabe docs, and students should all be required to read it!!!! Good job!
  13. by   Truly_Blessed
    Quote from moia
    I think the problem here is because you are a student you have yet to come into contact with a doctor as one professional to another.
    In school your teachers are your superiors, you are following a completely different chain of command and I think you may be projecting a bit...you are regimented quite tightly as a student and you feel subordinate to everyone right now because you have no power.
    Once you complete your training and pass your exam and get your licence you will begin to realize you don't have the luxury of thinking like this anymore.
    Yes...I said LUXURY...as a student your responsibilites and commitments are nominal...once you get a job this all will become clear.
    Right now it's comforting to think that you are just a cog in the wheel and that all you need to do is follow the orders of the doc and you will be fine.
    This is why so many talk about culture or reality shock...when you become a real nurse with a real job it will become terrifyingly real that your job is your own...you can't hide behind a doctor, it's all up to you to make life and death decisions.


    We complain about doctors because they don't carry half the responsibilty we do...I know that seems wrong and you still think the doctor is running the show...but they don't.
    A doctor may see a patient for 5 minutes on a morning round...they may not even do a cursory assessment...the nurse is the ONLY one with complete responsibility 24 hours a day...every choice we make every minute of the day impacts our patients,

    The doctor relies totally on the nurse.....if we miss something, if we forget something ,if we make a mistake it's all our responsibilty.

    I cannot use words to make you understand, you must live it yourself to understand what being a nurse means...your teachers aren't going to tell you...you would run screaming from the room.

    You will remember this conversation on the day when you are suddenly overwhelmed with the realization all these lives are in your hands and it will take more time than your patient has to call a doctor and have him lift this responsibility.

    You are clinging tightly to the idea you won't be alone, that someone smarter or more responsible will be there..you may want to start letting go of that idea soon.

    We complain about doctors because they have the luxury of relying totally on us and they don't give us the respect that reliance should command.
    We complain because that reliance has given alot of doctors a strange sense of complacency...they have had it too good for too long and some don't respond with the urgency necessary. We complain because our patients are on the ward when 10 years ago they would be in the ICU...we complain because new mothers are discharged too soon, we are doing surgery in outpatient clinics that 10 years ago would be a 2 week hospital stay.
    Doctors aren't seeing the acuity because we are damn good at what we have had to do and sometimes it makes us crazy that alot of doctors are now expecting us to just do more and more with less and less.
    Acuity has become so high doctors don't even see it any more..they just expect us to suck it up and handle it without bothering them.

    You have nothing to compare your practice to..for you as a student all your resposibilty lies with making your clinical instructor happy...soon you will have a really tough boss...patients and families..they don't care if you know the patho or can a write a care plan...you wont care about a care plan either..you will be way to busy.

    And yes you will be complaining about the doctors too because you will understand we aren't a team no matter what it says in the books or the philosophy of your hospital...those patients are yours and anyone who is making it harder for you to carry that load is going to be on your s**t list.
    Wow, Wow, Wow! I am saving this one. Good post!

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