Why is it... (nurses constantly throw jabs at physicans)

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · May 19, 2004

Nor do we need to degrade ourselves by generalizing a whole profession(s).

talaxandra · May 19, 2004

While I hear what you're saying, most of the criticism I hear aimed at doctors (and other health care providers) tends to be specifically about individuals: "Dr X never listens to the patient", "that's the social worker who decided Mr Y's wife could manage at home without supports", "Jane never does mouth care."

While praise tends to be less frequent, it's just as heart-felt, particularly with physicians who actually listen - not only to us, but to their patients (and doesn't it seem to be that if they listen to one they listen to the other as well?).

There are always going to be individuals who fail to measure up. As doctors are the individuals who have the greatest potential to negatively impact on our practice, and on our patients wellbeing, I think flagging issues is no big problem. If I know that resident Z doesn't ever come up to the ward to review a patient, and it's not just that she's busy right now, I'm less likely to wait before either being more forceful or going over her head. If I know she will try half a dozen times to site an IV I won't leave her alone with the patient but will stay to monitor the situation. There's a fine line sometimes between venting, forewarning a colleague, and whingeing, but there's a line there nonetheless.

This is not intended as a dig at you, NP2B, but I think nurses need to spend a lot less time worrying about whether or not we're seen as professionals by the people with whom we work. Doctors (and allied health) talk about which of us can be relied upon, and they gossip; I'm sure they don't debate about whether that behaviour's professional or not. Generalised griping, b****ing and moaning isn't professional behaviour, true, but I think a better reason not to do it is that it's not productive.

Dr. Gonzo · May 19, 2004

What wrong with criticizing doctors they usually blame a Nurse for everything.

manna, BSN, RN · May 19, 2004

the axe swings both ways.... :rolleyes:

NP2BE · May 19, 2004

Generalised griping, b****ing and moaning isn't professional behaviour, true, but I think a better reason not to do it is that it's not productive.

Excllent point

NP2BE · May 19, 2004

Nor do we need to degrade ourselves by generalizing a whole profession(s).

sorry for the generalization

unknown99, BSN, RN · May 20, 2004

Let me preface this by saying I am around nurses, and nursing students more so I don't get to hear the other side but that being said.....
Why do nurses constantly feel the need to throw jabs at physicans at every turn. "Dr. never listen" "that resident did this" That medical student.."
This is a form of professional insecurity. It showls a lack of professionalism. If we want to show our professionalism, we should respect other professions. And I have said this before and heard " well they should respect us" Are we in the 3rd grade? Our competency should speak for itself, we don't need to degrade ouselves by whining and acting like babies.
Just my .02

Just curious, are you a nurse??? If so, then you have nerves of gold. If not, then let's wait and see how long it takes for that attitude to change, after you become a nurse.

NP2BE · May 20, 2004

Just curious, are you a nurse??? If so, then you have nerves of gold. If not, then let's wait and see how long it takes for that attitude to change, after you become a nurse.

I have no problem with the fact that my role as an RN will be subordinate to docs who, while I may dislike and disagree with them, they know more than we do. And while I may complain about docs plenty when I get into the field, it will be for good reasons ( like the post about the doc who canceled the angiocath appt and dc'd coumadin thereby possibly causing someone a stroke, this is a good reason to complain), not petty generalized ones.

Well, so far in nursing school, I hear so many instructors, preceptor nurses, fellow nursing students say things that just sound, mmmmm, insecure. They (the ones making these statements) will have me beleive that

1 all drs are incompetent, noncaring and money grubbing egomaniacs

2 All nurses are competent and super in the area of caring\

3 try so hard to show how "professional" nurses are that they dog out another profession, medicine

I know many docs have ego problems and are difficult to work with, but I think a cohesive atmosphere shoould be promoted, not an adversarial one.

The reality that many nurses cringe at is, Docs are more highly trained than us nurses, and they are the ones that make the decisions. And we should give credit that they care about patients too although it may not show;If for no other reason then it will cost them more money if they screw up.

zambezi, BSN, RN · May 20, 2004

QUOTE NP2BE

I have no problem with the fact that my role as an RN will be subordinate to docs who, while I may dislike and disagree with them, they know more than we do. And while I may complain about docs plenty when I get into the field, it will be for good reasons ( like the post about the doc who canceled the angiocath appt and dc'd coumadin thereby possibly causing someone a stroke, this is a good reason to complain), not petty generalized ones.

***

I feel that you are mistaken when you say that nurses are subordinate to doctors...We are a different profession...we obtain valuable information that guides the patients care, we teach about diagnoses and lifestyle changes, we manage high acquity patients use clinical judgement...we carry out the doctors orders but are in no way "subordinate" (at least I will never see myself as subordinate, I do not and will not carry myself in that way)...we should be considered teammates, if anything. Both parties should have the main goal of health and wellness for that individualized patient. I only have experience working in critical care, but the docs value my opinion, I know what I want and need most of the time when I call the doc, if I need something I ask for it, and when I don't know, the doctor uses my judgements and report to make his clinical decision...sure that are docs that I don't always agree with or even like but it is my job to care for the patient and keep his/her wellness and recovery in the forefront of my mind...if not the patient, then I care for the family...

I know many docs have ego problems and are difficult to work with, but I think a cohesive atmosphere shoould be promoted, not an adversarial one.

The reality that many nurses cringe at is, Docs are more highly trained than us nurses, and they are the ones that make the decisions. And we should give credit that they care about patients too although it may not show;If for no other reason then it will cost them more money if they screw up.

***

I agree that a cohesive atmosphere should be promoted. I don't think that nurses are cringing at the fact that doctors are more extensively trained...the fact is, they are. That doesn't mean that they always make good decisions...some doctors are excellent...some I would't send my cat to. You are correct in saying that they make the decisions, but as part of our practice, we are allowed to question decisions and take other avenues of action should it be necessary...

My husband is kicking me off the computer now, but if I think of anything else, I'll add it later! Final point: we are a team...you are right when you say that the bit**ing and moaning should be cut down...I do feel that the nursing profession is struggling to fight off an image that it has had for a long time...Who knows where it will lead?

BittyBabyGrower, MSN, RN · May 20, 2004

Dang..have you ever worked at a teaching hospital? Sometimes even the ones that have been thru our area 3 or 4 times don't get it! Let's talk teammate after you see one of them stick a kid 10 times for an art stick or slaughter one's vocal cords trying to intubate. Uh...and I hate to say it, but there are a lot of us that do know more than the docs...our NNP's know more than the docs and that includes our fellows! And even if they are "more educated" than I am, and "they are the ones making the decisions" doesn't mean I have to carry that duty out if I think it is very wrong or harmful.

I am curious...are you going to be an NP? Like someone else said...the ax swings both ways!

zambezi, BSN, RN · May 20, 2004

Dang..have you ever worked at a teaching hospital? Sometimes even the ones that have been thru our area 3 or 4 times don't get it! Let's talk teammate after you see one of them stick a kid 10 times for an art stick or slaughter one's vocal cords trying to intubate. Uh...and I hate to say it, but there are a lot of us that do know more than the docs...our NNP's know more than the docs and that includes our fellows! And even if they are "more educated" than I am, and "they are the ones making the decisions" doesn't mean I have to carry that duty out if I think it is very wrong or harmful.
I am curious...are you going to be an NP? Like someone else said...the ax swings both ways!

Actually, no BittyBabyGrower, I have not worked in a teaching hospital...so I can't relate to your experience...I agree...I do not think that it is right for someone to stick a kid 10 times for an aline or tear apart vocal cords during intubation...where did I ever say that is right?

QUOTE: MYSELF

I only have experience working in critical care, but the docs value my opinion, I know what I want and need most of the time when I call the doc, if I need something I ask for it, and when I don't know, the doctor uses my judgements and report to make his clinical decision...sure there are docs that I don't always agree with or even like but it is my job to care for the patient and keep his/her wellness and recovery in the forefront of my mind...if not the patient, then I care for the family...

I agree that a cohesive atmosphere should be promoted. I don't think that nurses are cringing at the fact that doctors are more extensively trained...the fact is, they are. That doesn't mean that they always make good decisions...some doctors are excellent...some I wouldn't send my cat to. You are correct in saying that they make the decisions, but as part of our practice, we are allowed to question decisions and take other avenues of action should it be necessary...

***

Apparently, you didn't read the part of my post where I said that it is part of our role where we question docs orders and take other avenues should it be necessary...or the part where I said there are good docs and bad docs...I know that there are exceptionally experienced nurses out there...I hope to be one, and yes...years and years of schooling do not make you good at what you do...

Unfortunately, I don't have experience in working with NNPs (not my area)...the NPs that I do know are are good practicioners, but I do not have the opportunity to work with them...I may choose to follow this avenue myself in the future...

I am in no way excusing a doctor's bad behavior. I do think that it is part of our job to challenge decisions and plans of care when necessary. I do think that petty backbiting about docs is silly and a waste of time...If they are making serious infractions, it needs to be addressed...I don't really have any ideas about how to do that though--each institutions is so different :uhoh21:

I still keep the stance that we are a team...or that we should be striving to work as a team...on a team (a good one, anyway) if someone isn't doing their job well, they are on the bench....it should be the same in a hopsital-though I don't know how we would pull "benching" a doc (or nurse, for that matter)... I am all for practice for student doctors and nurses, but our patient's shouldn' t have to suffer for that...there should be a limit-1 or 2 sticks, tries--whatever the situation calls for...and yes, in this case (or any situation that calls for it) we need to advocate for our patients...

I guess I am just idealistic!! :rolleyes: