What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't? - page 19

I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an... Read More

  1. by   nursemike
    Quote from zenman
    I definitely would not say it like that! So this is why some of you are so incensed by this point. You have not been taught how to do it! Now, it's clear to me! Looks like more education in how to do history taking is in order here! You are making my point for me...more education is needed.
    But that's exactly what you did say!

    Oh, and by the by, most professions--including veternarian--require more than a bachelor's degree.

    I think what at least some of us arguing against a BSN as entry level are getting at is that your central assumption: if two high school grads attend nursing school, one an ADN and one a BSN, the BSN will know more, is an overly broad generalization. All else being equal, yes, one can learn more in four years than in two, but who says all else is equal? If--as I don't think anyone can dispute--there are excellent nurses with associate's degrees, then one can become an excellent nurse through an associate's (or diploma) program. Likewise, it is apparently possible to become a mediocre, or even poor nurse while gaining a BSN. And don't bother mentioning the bell curve. Your standard would exclude nurses at the strong end of the ADN curve but include ones at the week end of the BSN curve. That's the problem with degree inflation--it favors credentials over expertise.
    If our goal is to promote excellence in nursing, we should be looking at what it is that makes excellent nurses excellent, rather than worrying about enhancing our prestige.
  2. by   Hellllllo Nurse
    I had an two semesters of A&P, with labs, in my ADN program.

    My A&P II course was taught by a retired surgeon.

    I also had a semester of pharmacology.
    Human Relations and Business Mgmt., and Organizational Structures are two of the required classes in my ADN program.
  3. by   zenman
    [QUOTE=nursemike?]But that's exactly what you did say!

    I have only stated that it is important to determine the schooling level. I have not yet told you exactly what I say when I ask patients what their educational status is. I certainly do not say it the way you did! A good nursing assessment and history taking book will get you on the right path. Point is that it should be asked. I have never known it to be such a difficult question to ask.

    Oh, and by the by, most professions--including veternarian--require more than a bachelor's degree.
    Most professions have the BS as entry level. The vet degree is a terminal ( doctoral degree.)

    I think what at least some of us arguing against a BSN as entry level are getting at is that your central assumption: if two high school grads attend nursing school, one an ADN and one a BSN, the BSN will know more, is an overly broad generalization.
    Can hardly be considered overly broad as every course you take increases your knowledge level! It may be considered "broad" in the fact that it's true!

    All else being equal, yes, one can learn more in four years than in two, but who says all else is equal? If--as I don't think anyone can dispute--there are excellent nurses with associate's degrees, then one can become an excellent nurse through an associate's (or diploma) program. Likewise, it is apparently possible to become a mediocre, or even poor nurse while gaining a BSN. And don't bother mentioning the bell curve. Your standard would exclude nurses at the strong end of the ADN curve but include ones at the week end of the BSN curve. That's the problem with degree inflation--it favors credentials over expertise.
    You're basically answering your own question. Nothing else is equal. It's not "degree" inflation; you have more knowledge to start with. Whether you become excellent or not is another matter. The "masses" need to start at one entry level. Like I said earlier, if you think the ADN is ok as entry level, then let's do the same with public school teachers...2 years and they are teaching your kids.

    If our goal is to promote excellence in nursing, we should be looking at what it is that makes excellent nurses excellent, rather than worrying about enhancing our prestige.
    My point is not about prestige, although we are lacking that. The very fact that this thread has to exist is one of my points.
    Last edit by zenman on Jul 19, '04
  4. by   zenman
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    what do you think about LPN nurses then, Randy? If one entry level is to be standard,what of LPN's? As we know, many of the lay public have NO clue the difference between RN/LPN/ NP etc. Doctors at times even think "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse". Where do they fit in your idea of the one level entry professional nursing track?
    That would be similar to asking me what I think about CNAs. I love them! I've been both. I can't remember a single LPN that was not very good. Where do they fit in with my idea of one entry professional nursing track? The key word is professional nursing. Someone has already posted a definition of professionals. LPNs are similar to other professions that have a 4 yr degree as entry level and who have technical levels that report to them. I haven't checked lately but aren't many LPN programs expanding in length and about to approach the 18 month - 2 yr mark? So...are ADN programs going to expand before the LPNs catch up to them?
  5. by   zenman
    Posted by doodlebug914: What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't?

    I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an 'exit' type of exam that we have to pass before taking our boards. I'm feeling down about not being able to pass and have this huge fear that I am not going to pass my boards!

    Amidst my fear, I am questioning taking a role as an RN on floor nursing. It seems like most of the RN's on my floor have an associates degree, and I am questioning if I should be doing something different since I have my bachelor's? The pay is the same for an Assoc. or BSN, which doesn't make any sense to me. Just wondering what else is available that I might not be looking for, or what your opinions are!?

    Another BSN student who just graduated as well was speaking with me, and said she wonders if the Assoc. degree RN's laugh thinking that we have wasted our time getting our BSN when we get the same pay/same responsibilities. Is this a big issue?
    Apparently you discovered that this issue is a hot one! The fact that we may be the only profession that has 3 entry levels does not speak well for a so-called profession. The pay issues and responsibilities are a complex problem in our profession that is not easily solved. It would be if there was only one entry level. So...your original question can be answered by you doing as you were taught. You have seen me challenge people and get many to show exactly what I wanted them to do...identify weaknesses in their education. Many of the things I brought up are taught in a BSN program (I've taught in both ADN and BSN) and are not taught to ADN grads. Many ADN grads are actually operating outside their scope of education and are not even aware of the dangers involved. You have seen posters who seem to see no value to education, particularly if it is not nursing courses. No one has yet answered my question, "are you comfortable about having public school teachers with 2 years of college teaching your kids?" This is an emotional issue with those who have one type of educational background fighting to say that they have what it takes, yet they do not have the appropriate background to argue the issue. It's like students telling the professor what they should be taught! "The man who knows HOW works for the man that knows WHY." Congrats on starting this post; maybe some have learned something or will as least have another viewpoint to consider. Again, you have the educational background to perform as a professional nurse. You have not wasted your time. Keep on studying; I can tell you that hitting the books never stops! You have anymore threads that you'd like to start!
    Last edit by zenman on Jul 19, '04
  6. by   mamabear
    Quote from purplemania
    It makes no difference as long as you don't want to apply for a management position, and who is to say that might not happen in the future? You open more doors. Our facility pays $1/hr extra for BSN. Even if it did not, as an older student I realized I could never acquire the experience so had to go for education in order to expand my practice.
    My Clinical Manager (in olden times they were called "head nurses") is an ASN who clawed his way to the top by stepping all over the person who hired him. (He also made it abundantly clear to the suits that his predecessor was a useless dolt who shamelessly played favorites, never got things done on time, and spent a good chunk of her day checking in on her OTHER full time job.)
  7. by   nursemike
    Quote from zenman
    Most professions have the BS as entry level. The vet degree is a terminal ( doctoral degree.)



    Can hardly be considered overly broad as every course you take increases your knowledge level! It may be considered "broad" in the fact that it's true!
    I don't know what you say to your pts, but the phrase I quoted is indeed exactly what you said to Leslie. I certainly hope you aren't as rude to pts. And your assertion fails to consider variables such as the quality of the institution, the motivation of the student, the student's prior experience, etc. On the whole, one might reasonably expect that most BSN graduates have more "book learnin'" than most ADN or Diploma grads, but that's a generalization, not an absolute, and it is even less predictive of which graduate will be an excellent nurse. So, again, it would make more sense to look at which factors are more predictive, and try to emphasize them.

    Quote from zenman
    You're basically answering your own question. Nothing else is equal. It's not "degree" inflation; you have more knowledge to start with. Whether you become excellent or not is another matter. The "masses" need to start at one entry level. Like I said earlier, if you think the ADN is ok as entry level, then let's do the same with public school teachers...2 years and they are teaching your kids.
    Your point about school teachers isn't too strong, either. Are you saying that all teachers are effective educators because they have bachelor's degrees? Frankly, a two-year degree for teachers might be an improvement--less time to get indoctrinated into hare-brained theories. Now, clearly, you wouldn't have an AD.Ed. on your Ph.D. thesis committee, or even teaching high school (maybe), but K-6? Why not? Could they really do worse than they are (in some districts)?
    In any case, it's fallacious to assume that all professions should have the same entry level. In many professions (DVM, DDS, MD, JD (Doctor of Jurisprudence) Pharm.D,) the terminal degree is the entry level. In education and divinity, a bachelors is sometimes sufficient.
    The document Karen posted about the government's definition of a learned profession is interesting, but keep in mind that what these professions are "exempt" from is having to pay time-and-a-half for overtime. Given that most nurses are wage earners, not salaried, we could argue that nursing is a trade, not a profession, and this whole debate is pointless.
    Quote from zenman
    My point is not about prestige, although we are lacking that. The very fact that this thread has to exist is one of my points.
    Sorry, but it really appears to me that your major interest is in getting nursing on an even footing with other professions, so that we can get the respect we deserve. I'm not saying that's entirely illegitimate--getting more respect is one of the things that will help us do our jobs. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, and your major concern really is that patients are jeopardized by having ADN, ASN, or Diploma nurses (in which case, you're simply mistaken).
    What I've tried to argue is a.) professional recognition is not our most pressing need and b.) an entry-level BSN is not the most effective means of attaining professional recognition. I do respect your right to disagree with either or both assertions, but I don't respect your implications that those of us who aren't BSN's aren't able to comprehend what you are saying.
    Anyway, it has been a blast arguing with you. Next career, let's do law school!
    Last edit by nursemike? on Jul 19, '04
  8. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from nursemike?

    In any case, it's fallacious to assume that all professions should have the same entry level. In many professions (DVM, DDS, MD, JD (Doctor of Jurisprudence) Pharm.D,) the terminal degree is the entry level. In education and divinity, a bachelors is sometimes sufficient.
    The document Karen posted about the government's definition of a learned profession is interesting, but keep in mind that what these professions are "exempt" from is having to pay time-and-a-half for overtime. Given that most nurses are wage earners, not salaried, we could argue that nursing is a trade, not a profession, and this whole debate is pointless.
    Sorry, but it really appears to me that your major interest is in getting nursing on an even footing with other professions, so that we can get the respect we deserve. I'm not saying that's entirely illegitimate--getting more respect is one of the things that will help us do our jobs. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, and your major concern really is that patients are jeopardized by having ADN, ASN, or Diploma nurses (in which case, you're simply mistaken).
    What I've tried to argue is a.) professional recognition is not our most pressing need and b.) an entry-level BSN is not the most effective means of attaining professional recognition. I do respect your right to disagree with either or both assertions, but I don't respect your implications that those of us who aren't BSN's aren't able to comprehend what you are saying.
    Anyway, it has been a blast arguing with you. Next career, let's do law school!

    :kiss :kiss :kiss
  9. by   zenman
    Quote from nursemike?
    I don't know what you say to your pts, but the phrase I quoted is indeed exactly what you said to Leslie.
    I said something to that affect to her, yes, but not to patients.

    I certainly hope you aren't as rude to pts. And your assertion fails to consider variables such as the quality of the institution, the motivation of the student, the student's prior experience, etc.
    Most patients seem to like me ...and nurses. Remember, I worked at this same hospital as a scab, then became a supervisor a few weeks after the strike was over. I get great evals from the nurses. That give you a clue as to my communication ability and other skills?

    On the whole, one might reasonably expect that most BSN graduates have more "book learnin'" than most ADN or Diploma grads, but that's a generalization, not an absolute, and it is even less predictive of which graduate will be an excellent nurse. So, again, it would make more sense to look at which factors are more predictive, and try to emphasize them.
    I would say that if you looked at any ADN, diploma and BSN program it would be an "absolute" that one of the three has more hours! Predicting who will be a great nurse is not an issue...yet; we have to clear up our educational mess first.

    Your point about school teachers isn't too strong, either. Are you saying that all teachers are effective educators because they have bachelor's degrees? Frankly, a two-year degree for teachers might be an improvement--less time to get indoctrinated into hare-brained theories. Now, clearly, you wouldn't have an AD.Ed. on your Ph.D. thesis committee, or even teaching high school (maybe), but K-6? Why not? Could they really do worse than they are (in some districts)?
    My point is extremely strong; otherwise I would not make it. Sure our educational system is lacking. Let's make it worse. Some of you guys can't understand that it's about the masses not an individual ("all teachers are effective") that stands out or is a poor performer. They will always be there! There are bad and good lawyers but most today have the same entry level. Same with doctors. Well maybe we should cut down on the doctors education when we do the teachers. Instead of 4 years of med school maybe 2 will be enough. They will catch up with their clinicals, you think?

    In any case, it's fallacious to assume that all professions should have the same entry level. In many professions (DVM, DDS, MD, JD (Doctor of Jurisprudence) Pharm.D,) the terminal degree is the entry level. In education and divinity, a bachelors is sometimes sufficient.
    I keep saying most professions have a 4 yr degree as entry level. Since they do, it's not fallacious to assume that they should! Most churches I've been in had a doctorate level guy behind the pulpit.


    Sorry, but it really appears to me that your major interest is in getting nursing on an even footing with other professions, so that we can get the respect we deserve. I'm not saying that's entirely illegitimate--getting more respect is one of the things that will help us do our jobs. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, and your major concern really is that patients are jeopardized by having ADN, ASN, or Diploma nurses (in which case, you're simply mistaken).
    What I've tried to argue is a.) professional recognition is not our most pressing need and b.) an entry-level BSN is not the most effective means of attaining professional recognition. I do respect your right to disagree with either or both assertions, but I don't respect your implications that those of us who aren't BSN's aren't able to comprehend what you are saying.
    Anyway, it has been a blast arguing with you. Next career, let's do law school!
    Yes, one of my main interests is getting us more on an even footing. Regarding safety, go get more education (your hospital should have a tuition reimbursement program). Take the nursing courses you did not get in your ADN program, then tell me that the additional knowledge did not make you a better and safer nurse. Most people I've talked to in many professions say thay with more education, they now realize what they did not know. Compare 3 hours of A&P to 6 hours. Will you know more with 6 hours versus 3? Most likely. Will it translate to more knowledge in the workplace. Certainly should!
    Last edit by zenman on Jul 19, '04
  10. by   zenman
    earle58, quit kissing up to nursemike...you're both sinking...you more than he!

    Both of you go to your rooms!
  11. by   Hellllllo Nurse
    Quote from zenman
    ....... Compare 3 hours of A&P to 6 hours. Will you know more with 6 hours versus 3? Most likely. Will it translate to more knowledge in the workplace. Certainly should!
    SEVEN college credits hours of A&P in this RN's ADN education.
  12. by   zenman
    Quote from Hellllllo Nurse
    SEVEN college credits hours of A&P in this RN's ADN education.
    Don't nitpik! In your case go get 14 hours and see if there is a difference. Get my point?
  13. by   Hellllllo Nurse
    Quote from zenman
    Don't nitpik!
    Look in the mirror. Yes, I get the point.

    However, I'm tired of hearing you say over and over that ADNs get only 3 cr hrs of A&P!

close