What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't?

Q. · Jul 18, 2004

a bsn means bachelors of science in nursing ...so yes, i would prefer courses to be oriented to that topic. furthermore, any sort of learning (not ltd to college) should be encouraged and embraced. but if i were to use the same rationales as you, i could say just as easily that it's perfectly ok for my son to play his video games all day for he is mastering eye and hand coordination, learning to strategize and utilizing his math skills. gen'l education is perfect for becoming well rounded but again, i think a bsn should be focused on nsg., for the specialty that it is. and even then, learning in this profession, is lifelong.
leslie

Of course a BSN program is and should be focused on nursing; afterall it is a major. There are so many nursing credits that are awarded in a BSN program; other credits that are mandated via the university that the nursing school is affiliated with are and should be incorporated into that in order for the university to grant the degree. But I thought you were a proponent of having strictly nursing courses by the nursing department because all other general eds are futile. I disagree, they are not futile. They are valuable and needed. The subjects themselves many people may find "useless" but the skills you learn from them are not. This is what I believe.

As to the parallel you drew with the video games, etc. I don't see the parallel and don't find that to be the same logic I used. Sitting unsupervised and doing repetitive skills and therefore getting better at it as a result is just a tad different than the more higher level skills I was referring to - and I think you know this.

Again, I was responding to the notion that people think these courses don't apply to nursing; I believe they do.

leslie :-D · Jul 18, 2004

As to the parallel you drew with the video games, etc. I don't see the parallel and don't find that to be the same logic I used. Sitting unsupervised and doing repetitive skills and therefore getting better at it as a result is just a tad different than the more higher level skills I was referring to - and I think you know this.

hey susy,

that's absolutely fine if we disagree, which btw, we do. there's definitely a parallel; as for sitting unsupervised, you would be unsupervised if you were taking an online course; also beyond the repetitive motor skills, strategizing and math are utilizing your mental skills and acuity. sorry, but it's all gen'l ed and that's what it's all about. what if i said my son played chess? just because it's not on the college curriculum, it's not a learning experience. i don't know what makes computers or shakespeare and its' ultimate skills acquired, differs from those i mentioned. and for that matter, people skills, qd experiences, are all gen'l ed if you have your eyes and ears open. the only difference being are the credits you pay for and receive towards your degree.

have a great day.

leslie

leslie :-D · Jul 18, 2004

As to the parallel you drew with the video games, etc. I don't see the parallel and don't find that to be the same logic I used. Sitting unsupervised and doing repetitive skills and therefore getting better at it as a result is just a tad different than the more higher level skills I was referring to - and I think you know this.

hey susy,

that's absolutely fine if we disagree, which btw, we do. there's definitely a parallel. as for sitting unsupervised, you would be unsupervised if you were taking an online course; also beyond the repetitive motor skills, strategizing and math are utilizing your mental skills and acuity. sorry, but it's all gen'l ed and that's what it's all about. what if i said my son played chess? just because it's not on the college curriculum, it's not a learning experience? i don't know what makes computers or shakespeare and its' ultimate skills acquired, different from those i mentioned. and for that matter, people skills, qd experiences, are all gen'l ed if you have your eyes and ears open. the only difference being are the credits you pay for and receive towards your degree.

have a great day.

leslie

Q. · Jul 18, 2004

Yeah, we definitely disagree. I can't draw any comparisons or parallels to an adult taking a college course and a kid playing video games. Just can't. In fact, I can definitely say that college courses don't have a correlation to violence (as video games do!)

But hey, disagreements make life interesting.

SmilingBluEyes · Jul 18, 2004

I have said this before. Why is it, a say, BA coupled with an ADN not good enough? Why must it be BSN only? If education ( and well roundedness) is soooo valuable to the profession, then let us recognize the value of an ADN coupled with a prior or new baccalaureate degree, or higher, and quit making it all about BSN! I would LOVE to study another major, say in foreign languages, majoring and minoring in them. I find returning for RN-BSN soooo unsatisfying and would MUCH rather do that. But no, they want us to have BSN only to advance in nursing. How short sighted is that? I think an ADN provides the whole "base" we need to be registered nurses, and would think coupling it with a degree of another discipline more than valuable. Anyone else?

P_RN, ADN, RN · Jul 18, 2004

The Moderators appreciate all the excellent input. In 24 hours this thread will be archived Thank you all for your views on the subject.

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Home Health Columnist / Guide · Jul 19, 2004

what is a professional--us governments definition

29cfr541.541.301 - learned professions.

www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/esa/ title_29/part_541/29cfr541.301.htm

(a) the ``learned'' professions are described in sec. 541.3(a)(1) as

those requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or

learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized

intellectual instruction and study as distinguished from a general

academic education and from an apprenticeship and from training in the

performance of routine mental, manual, or physical processes.

(b) the first element in the requirement is that the knowledge be of

an advanced type. thus, generally speaking, it must be knowledge which

cannot be attained at the high school level.

this serves to distinguish the professions from the mechanical arts

where in some instances the knowledge is of a fairly advanced type, but

not in a field of science or learning.

(d) the requisite knowledge, in the third place, must be customarily

acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction

and study. here it should be noted that the word ``customarily'' has

been used to meet a specific problem occurring in many industries. as is

well known, even in the classical profession of law, there are still a

few practitioners who have gained their knowledge by home study and

experience. characteristically, the members of the profession are

graduates of law schools, but some few of their fellow professionals

whose status is equal to theirs, whose attainments are the same, and

whose word is the same did not enjoy that opportunity. such persons are

not barred from the exemption. the word ``customarily'' implies that in

the vast majority of cases the specific academic training is a

prerequisite for entrance into the profession. it makes the exemption

available to the occasional lawyer who has not gone to law school, or

the occasional chemist who is not the possessor of a degree in

chemistry, etc., but it does not include the members of such quasi-

professions as journalism in which the bulk of the employees have

acquired their skill by experience rather than by any formal specialized

training. it should be noted also that many employees in these quasi-

professions may qualify for exemption under other sections of the

regulations in subpart a of this part or under the alternative paragraph

of the ``professional'' definition applicable to the artistic fields.

(e)(1) generally speaking the professions which meet the requirement

for a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study

include law, medicine, nursing, accounting, actuarial computation,

engineering, architecture, teaching, various types of physical,

chemical, and biological sciences, including pharmacy and registered or

certified medical technology and so forth. the typical symbol of the

professional training and the best prima facie evidence of its

possession is, of course, the appropriate academic degree, and in these

professions an advanced academic degree is a standard (if not universal)

prequisite. in the case of registered (or certified) medical

technologists, successful completion of 3 academic years of

preprofessional study in an accredited college or university plus a

fourth year of professional course work in a school of medical

technology approved by the council of medical education of the american

medical association will be recognized as a prolonged course of

specialized intellectual instruction and study. registered nurses have

traditionally been recognized as professional employees by the division

in its enforcement of the act. although, in some cases, the course of

study has become shortened (but more concentrated), nurses who are

registered by the appropriate state examining board will continue to be

recognized as having met the requirement of sec. 541.3(a)(1) of the

regulations.

(2) the areas in which professional exemptions may be available are

expanding. as knowledge is developed, academic training is broadened,

degrees are offered in new and diverse fields, specialties are created

and the true specialist, so trained, who is given new and greater

responsibilities, comes closer to meeting the tests. however, just as an

excellent legal stenographer is not a lawyer, these technical

specialists must be more than highly skilled technicians. many employees

in industry rise to executive or administrative positions by their

natural ability and good commonsense, combined with long experience with

a company, without the aid of a college education or degree in any area.

a college education would perhaps give an executive or administrator a

more cultured and polished approach but the necessary know-how for doing

the executive job would depend upon the person's own inherent talent.

the professional person, on the other hand, attains his status after a

prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study.

(f) many accountants are exempt as professional employees

(regardless of whether they are employed by public accounting firms or

by other types of enterprises). (some accountants may qualify for

exemption as bona fide administrative employees.) however, exemption of

accountants, as in the case of other occupational groups (see

sec. 541.308), must be determined on the basis of the individual

employee's duties and the other criteria in the regulations. it has been

the divisions' experience that certified public accountants who meet the

salary requirement of the regulations will, except in unusual cases,

meet the requirements of the professional exemption since they meet the

tests contained in sec. 541.3. similarly, accountants who are not

certified public accountants may also be exempt as professional

employees if they actually perform work which requires the consistent

exercise of discretion and judgment and otherwise meet the tests

prescribed in the definition of ``professional'' employee. accounting

clerks, junior accountants, and other accountants, on the other hand,

normally perform a great deal of routine work which is not an essential

part of and necessarily incident to any professional work which they may

do. where these facts are found such accountants are not exempt. the

title ``junior accountant,'' however, is not determinative of failure to

qualify for exemption any more than the title ``senior accountant''

would necessarily imply that the employee is exempt....

[38 fr 11390, may 7, 1973. redesignated and amended at 57 fr 46744, oct.

9, 1992.]

------------

why is it, a say, ba coupled with an adn not good enough?

definition of a professional includes: learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study.

few adn programs include education and clinical training in public health or home health nursing, leadership/management and administration, and research.

it is intended that graduates with a bs major in nursing will have a sound educational basis for beginning professional practice, for continuing development, for graduate study in nursing, and for accepting professional and civic responsibilities. the addition of the above courses helps to round out professional nursing practice--areas not covered in a ba program.

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

There is no possible way to say, "Let me know your education level and I'll explain it to you..." without offending.

I definitely would not say it like that! So this is why some of you are so incensed by this point. You have not been taught how to do it! Now, it's clear to me! Looks like more education in how to do history taking is in order here! You are making my point for me...more education is needed.

It's clear you do not want my learned opinion so please consult nursing assessment books and search the web for this information. As I said before, patients have died due to faulty patient teaching. Patients appreciate an extensive history and physical. I heard a physician last night say that history taking is an art and few physicians know how to do it anymore. A very extensive history can reap benefits and save time and money and improve patient outcome.

Hopefully, it's clear by now that you don't want to suggest to AD nurses that they aren't "real" nurses--goes double for LPN's, by the way. But education is never wasted.

No, they are nurses by vertue of licensure. I'm just arguing for one entry level. If you want it to be the ADN, that is fine. At the same time, however, you must make sure that your kids teachers just have a minimum of 2 years to teach. If you do that, considering that health care is more complex and more life and death decisions lie in your hands, then I'll go along with you! I really do not see where there is a real decision to make!

Q. · Jul 19, 2004

I have said this before. Why is it, a say, BA coupled with an ADN not good enough? Why must it be BSN only?

For the record, I'm personally not that bent on a BSN. I'm all for ANY 4 year degree for nurses. But since the BSN is a bachelor's degree with a major in nursing, which is the profession we are talking about, most discussions will default to that.

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

Surely you don't need computer programming for nursing to learn "think logically, anticipate programs, cause & effect"....maybe you do but a lot of us don't.
Classical literature to read/analyze info, interpret subtlies, articulate & defend views to a public audience. ??? Whatever....whatever it takes for you.

I guess you do not realize the value of education. Hope your children do not pick up this attitude.

Look, we're all pleased as punch you have your BSN degree. What puts me off is those who think this is the only way to go and any other way you don't learn enough, you're not a professional, think less of those with ASN and diploma schooled....and I could go on and on as well.

The BSN should be the only way for the reasons I spoken of. ADNs do not learn as much in a 2 yr program as in a 4 year program...you can't argue that fact! Those of us with more education do not think less of you as a person...why do so many diploma and ADN grads think this?

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

NURSEMIKE!!!
thank you, thank you and thank you. someone who gets it...

Just as I told nursemike...since you don't believe me go take a nursing assessment course, surf the web or look in a nursing assessment and history taking book. Then let me see you back track!

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

a bsn means bachelors of science in nursing ...so yes, i would prefer courses to be oriented to that topic. furthermore, any sort of learning (not ltd to college) should be encouraged and embraced. but if i were to use the same rationales as you, i could say just as easily that it's perfectly ok for my son to play his video games all day for he is mastering eye and hand coordination, learning to strategize and utilizing his math skills. gen'l education is perfect for becoming well rounded but again, i think a bsn should be focused on nsg., for the specialty that it is. and even then, learning in this profession, is lifelong.
leslie

A 4 year degree is considered the basic degree and includes gen ed subjects, just as in all 4 yr degree programs. It makes for a well-rounded person. The BSN is not a "specialist" degree; that's where the masters degree comes in.

You son can benefit from video games...even the military uses them for training. He just should not spend all day on them! All learning is lifelong; we still need to start everyone off at the same level. The profession is messed up enough.