What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't?

nursemike, ASN, RN · Jul 19, 2004

Most professions have the BS as entry level. The vet degree is a terminal ( doctoral degree.)
Can hardly be considered overly broad as every course you take increases your knowledge level! It may be considered "broad" in the fact that it's true!

I don't know what you say to your pts, but the phrase I quoted is indeed exactly what you said to Leslie. I certainly hope you aren't as rude to pts. And your assertion fails to consider variables such as the quality of the institution, the motivation of the student, the student's prior experience, etc. On the whole, one might reasonably expect that most BSN graduates have more "book learnin'" than most ADN or Diploma grads, but that's a generalization, not an absolute, and it is even less predictive of which graduate will be an excellent nurse. So, again, it would make more sense to look at which factors are more predictive, and try to emphasize them.

You're basically answering your own question. Nothing else is equal. It's not "degree" inflation; you have more knowledge to start with. Whether you become excellent or not is another matter. The "masses" need to start at one entry level. Like I said earlier, if you think the ADN is ok as entry level, then let's do the same with public school teachers...2 years and they are teaching your kids.

Your point about school teachers isn't too strong, either. Are you saying that all teachers are effective educators because they have bachelor's degrees? Frankly, a two-year degree for teachers might be an improvement--less time to get indoctrinated into hare-brained theories. Now, clearly, you wouldn't have an AD.Ed. on your Ph.D. thesis committee, or even teaching high school (maybe), but K-6? Why not? Could they really do worse than they are (in some districts)?

In any case, it's fallacious to assume that all professions should have the same entry level. In many professions (DVM, DDS, MD, JD (Doctor of Jurisprudence) Pharm.D,) the terminal degree is the entry level. In education and divinity, a bachelors is sometimes sufficient.

The document Karen posted about the government's definition of a learned profession is interesting, but keep in mind that what these professions are "exempt" from is having to pay time-and-a-half for overtime. Given that most nurses are wage earners, not salaried, we could argue that nursing is a trade, not a profession, and this whole debate is pointless.

My point is not about prestige, although we are lacking that. The very fact that this thread has to exist is one of my points.

Sorry, but it really appears to me that your major interest is in getting nursing on an even footing with other professions, so that we can get the respect we deserve. I'm not saying that's entirely illegitimate--getting more respect is one of the things that will help us do our jobs. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, and your major concern really is that patients are jeopardized by having ADN, ASN, or Diploma nurses (in which case, you're simply mistaken).

What I've tried to argue is a.) professional recognition is not our most pressing need and b.) an entry-level BSN is not the most effective means of attaining professional recognition. I do respect your right to disagree with either or both assertions, but I don't respect your implications that those of us who aren't BSN's aren't able to comprehend what you are saying.

Anyway, it has been a blast arguing with you. Next career, let's do law school!

leslie :-D · Jul 19, 2004

In any case, it's fallacious to assume that all professions should have the same entry level. In many professions (DVM, DDS, MD, JD (Doctor of Jurisprudence) Pharm.D,) the terminal degree is the entry level. In education and divinity, a bachelors is sometimes sufficient.
The document Karen posted about the government's definition of a learned profession is interesting, but keep in mind that what these professions are "exempt" from is having to pay time-and-a-half for overtime. Given that most nurses are wage earners, not salaried, we could argue that nursing is a trade, not a profession, and this whole debate is pointless.
Sorry, but it really appears to me that your major interest is in getting nursing on an even footing with other professions, so that we can get the respect we deserve. I'm not saying that's entirely illegitimate--getting more respect is one of the things that will help us do our jobs. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, and your major concern really is that patients are jeopardized by having ADN, ASN, or Diploma nurses (in which case, you're simply mistaken).
What I've tried to argue is a.) professional recognition is not our most pressing need and b.) an entry-level BSN is not the most effective means of attaining professional recognition. I do respect your right to disagree with either or both assertions, but I don't respect your implications that those of us who aren't BSN's aren't able to comprehend what you are saying.
Anyway, it has been a blast arguing with you. Next career, let's do law school!

:kiss :kiss :kiss :balloons:

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

I don't know what you say to your pts, but the phrase I quoted is indeed exactly what you said to Leslie.

I said something to that affect to her, yes, but not to patients.

I certainly hope you aren't as rude to pts. And your assertion fails to consider variables such as the quality of the institution, the motivation of the student, the student's prior experience, etc.

Most patients seem to like me ...and nurses. Remember, I worked at this same hospital as a scab, then became a supervisor a few weeks after the strike was over. I get great evals from the nurses. That give you a clue as to my communication ability and other skills?

On the whole, one might reasonably expect that most BSN graduates have more "book learnin'" than most ADN or Diploma grads, but that's a generalization, not an absolute, and it is even less predictive of which graduate will be an excellent nurse. So, again, it would make more sense to look at which factors are more predictive, and try to emphasize them.

I would say that if you looked at any ADN, diploma and BSN program it would be an "absolute" that one of the three has more hours! Predicting who will be a great nurse is not an issue...yet; we have to clear up our educational mess first.

Your point about school teachers isn't too strong, either. Are you saying that all teachers are effective educators because they have bachelor's degrees? Frankly, a two-year degree for teachers might be an improvement--less time to get indoctrinated into hare-brained theories. Now, clearly, you wouldn't have an AD.Ed. on your Ph.D. thesis committee, or even teaching high school (maybe), but K-6? Why not? Could they really do worse than they are (in some districts)?

My point is extremely strong; otherwise I would not make it. Sure our educational system is lacking. Let's make it worse. Some of you guys can't understand that it's about the masses not an individual ("all teachers are effective") that stands out or is a poor performer. They will always be there! There are bad and good lawyers but most today have the same entry level. Same with doctors. Well maybe we should cut down on the doctors education when we do the teachers. Instead of 4 years of med school maybe 2 will be enough. They will catch up with their clinicals, you think?

In any case, it's fallacious to assume that all professions should have the same entry level. In many professions (DVM, DDS, MD, JD (Doctor of Jurisprudence) Pharm.D,) the terminal degree is the entry level. In education and divinity, a bachelors is sometimes sufficient.

I keep saying most professions have a 4 yr degree as entry level. Since they do, it's not fallacious to assume that they should! Most churches I've been in had a doctorate level guy behind the pulpit.

Sorry, but it really appears to me that your major interest is in getting nursing on an even footing with other professions, so that we can get the respect we deserve. I'm not saying that's entirely illegitimate--getting more respect is one of the things that will help us do our jobs. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, and your major concern really is that patients are jeopardized by having ADN, ASN, or Diploma nurses (in which case, you're simply mistaken).
What I've tried to argue is a.) professional recognition is not our most pressing need and b.) an entry-level BSN is not the most effective means of attaining professional recognition. I do respect your right to disagree with either or both assertions, but I don't respect your implications that those of us who aren't BSN's aren't able to comprehend what you are saying.
Anyway, it has been a blast arguing with you. Next career, let's do law school!

Yes, one of my main interests is getting us more on an even footing. Regarding safety, go get more education (your hospital should have a tuition reimbursement program). Take the nursing courses you did not get in your ADN program, then tell me that the additional knowledge did not make you a better and safer nurse. Most people I've talked to in many professions say thay with more education, they now realize what they did not know. Compare 3 hours of A&P to 6 hours. Will you know more with 6 hours versus 3? Most likely. Will it translate to more knowledge in the workplace. Certainly should!

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

earle58, quit kissing up to nursemike...you're both sinking...you more than he! :)

Both of you go to your rooms!

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Jul 19, 2004

....... Compare 3 hours of A&P to 6 hours. Will you know more with 6 hours versus 3? Most likely. Will it translate to more knowledge in the workplace. Certainly should!

SEVEN college credits hours of A&P in this RN's ADN education.

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

SEVEN college credits hours of A&P in this RN's ADN education.

Don't nitpik! In your case go get 14 hours and see if there is a difference. Get my point?

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Jul 19, 2004

Don't nitpik!

Look in the mirror. Yes, I get the point.

However, I'm tired of hearing you say over and over that ADNs get only 3 cr hrs of A&P!

leslie :-D · Jul 19, 2004

earle58, quit kissing up to nursemike...you're both sinking...you more than he! :)
Both of you go to your rooms!

ok. mike, your room or mine?

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

From NSU college of nursing:

Associate Degree in Nursing A two-year technical degree nursing education program that prepares graduates for basic nursing care in hospitals and long term care settings. Four semesters of clinical are offered at Shreveport and Leesville.

LPN to RN

A two-year plan for the LPN to pursue the Associate degree in Nursing. The purpose of the articulation plan is to facilitate the upward mobility of students in the nursing curriculum. The Associate degree in Nursing prepares graduates to provide basic nursing care in hospitals and long term care settings.

Bachelor of Science in Nursing

A four-year professional nursing education program that includes liberal arts education preparing graduates for beginning nursing practice in a wide variety of settings including acute and long term care, community and school health and critical care. After three semesters of academic courses and acceptance into clinical courses, students must complete five semesters of clinical courses on the Shreveport campus.

They said it, not me!

leslie :-D · Jul 19, 2004

oh and zenman, i would guesstimate that i have hundreds of hours of a&p, as i like to read medical/nsg books at my leisure. neurotic? absolutely. but i still apply this solid knowledge base in my practice...which summarizes the bottom line.

YES , the minimum entry to nursing should be a bsn.

BUT , it still does not separate the chaff from the grain.

peace.

leslie

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

oh and zenman, i would guesstimate that i have hundreds of hours of a&p, as i like to read medical/nsg books at my leisure. neurotic? absolutely. but i still apply this solid knowledge base in my practice...which summarizes the bottom line.
YES , the minimum entry to nursing should be a bsn.
BUT , it still does not separate the chaff from the grain.
peace.
leslie

And I agree with you.

leslie :-D · Jul 19, 2004

And I agree with you.

thud........