Shocked At Nurses Actions Tonight - page 11

I work part time at a local SNF / rehab faciliety. On PM and NOC shift it is staffed with 3 or 4 LPNs and one RN charge nurse (tonight it was me). One of our LPNs is a sweet young girl from a very... Read More

  1. by   Miss Mab
    I can't believe I had to make it to page 13 before I could relate to some of the responses.

    In my opinion, this nurse is in dire need of some education and sensitivity training. Fired--probably not unless she can't comply. BON? Come on, people. The way I read it she was sent home--she didn't walk out of the facility. The girl sounds like a twit---you can't lose your license for that or we'll REALLY have a shortage then...

    Finally, I'm sorry the OP had to deal with this situation at all---but why do I get the feeling that the issue was more of her not doing things your way---"in private--in private". Sure, that would've been ideal but she wasn't getting it. You did say you would have arranged for her to switch if only you had talked "in private"

    I don't know---this LPN doesn't sound like a winner at the present time--but firing and certainly BON ---WAY overboard....
    Last edit by Miss Mab on Nov 25, '06
  2. by   caroladybelle
    [QUOTE=PMFB-RN;1937355]I work part time at a local SNF / rehab faciliety. On PM and NOC shift it is staffed with 3 or 4 LPNs and one RN charge nurse (tonight it was me). One of our LPNs is a sweet young girl from a very small town near by. She is in a BSN program to become an RN as well. She was late to work and I assinged her to care for a new admit who is recovering from a serious MVA. She took report and went to meet her patient. She came back out of the room about 5 min later very upset. She demanded to know why I hadn't told her the patient was a muslim in report. I asked her why it mattered. She said that "those people are all trying to kill us!" and she couldn't understand why the patient was even admited or even given medical care in America! She flatly refused to provide care for this person. Nothing I said to her had any affect on her. She actually got angry at me for trying to explain why this person needs and deserves nurses care.
    I ended up sending her home without pay and doing to work myself. I am only part time at this place and while I supervise LPNs and CNAs I am not their boss with the power to hire and fire. I did write a letter to the DON explaining the stuation and recomending that the LPN be fired. I also intend to inform our state board of nursing of her actions. [/QUOTE/]

    The LPN did clearly "abandon" the patient. There was clearly no LEGITIMATE NURSING reason that the LPN could not care for the patient. There were adequate attempts made to reason with her. She presumably has been educated (as most of us in Nursing are) to multicultural competency. The LPN also demonstrates that she feels that the patient does not deserve care at all. And she is angered by those that attempt educate her.

    This is also an issue that will certainly come up again.

    This does make it it relevant to the BON. She did clearly abandon a patient, for no acceptable reason. She also has made it apparent that she is not easily amenable to changing her beliefs. She also has indicated that she will not care for a signicant portion of the population.

    Any time a care issue occurs that may send someone before the BON/gets suspended from work/commits a fireable offense, I AS A SUPERVISOR expect that I will be notified. It is part of a supervisor's job to know these. And, yes, Daytonite, some of us ARE seeing it from the other side because we have been there. And, no, holidays do not change that.

    Especially given that staff nurses get called all the time...on vacations..regardless of holidays ...on days off....on days REQUESTED off...on sick days to come in to work/come for a meeting. Supervisors should not consider themselves immune.

    As far as legalities...there will be the usual dust up that accompanies any case of someone sent home for legitimate reasons. "My religion/personal beliefs/freedom of speech was violated - I should not be expected to overcome these issues for work - they are picking on me because I am not politically correct "- all the usual excuses that people make. While they do not have any merit, they do serve to muddy the waters, and careful documentation is needed and proper notifications are required.
  3. by   ZASHAGALKA
    There is a word called 'praxis'. It means how well a conceptual idea follows through to implementation.

    I have accused nursing for YEARS of having no real praxis. Our Ivory Tower is all but irrelevant to nurses in the trenches.

    I think this idea that I have to be a manager in order to understand when to call a manager is consistent with the idea of bad praxis.

    For such a concept to work, in PRACTICE, it is those that actually call the managers that have to understand when to do so, not the managers themselves.

    And, I have been a charge nurse for years. To say that I'm not qualified to voice an opinion about when to call a manager because I'm NOT a manager is capricious, at best. That idea is also based in a failure of leadership, not in the ability to take direction.

    If a manager doesn't lay out a clear understanding of WHEN to be called, then those under that manager cannot be faulted for using best judgment. And, I don't have to be a manager to know that. Or rather, to the extent that a manager hoards such expertise for THEMSELVES, it is those managers that are guilty of bad praxis.

    I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that I appreciate a patronizing pat on the head that I'm not qualified to know what a manager wants because I'm not a manager. If those in the trenches don't know what a manager wants, exactly whose fault is that?

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  4. by   nrsang97
    I have been following this thread from the beginning. I have a few things to add, I live in Dearborn,MI and we have the largest muslim population in the US. Wmarat, I see you are in Isreal and have a different view than most on this site. I can understand why you have the feelings you do. I can say that I know many Muslim people. Most are kind and compassoinate people. For this young nurse to not take care of someone based on their religion is just like saying that she wouldn't care for someone based on the color of their skin, sexual orinentation ect. So is she saying that if the pt doc is muslim that she would refuse his orders. Would she if unable to trade assignments for this person of the muslim faith, deny them pain meds becasue they are the "enemy"? As nurses we sometimes aren't able to deal with our assignment. Sometimes its the alcoholic, that reminds you of your brother. So instead of taking this pt and not being the kind of nurse you want to be for him, you trade with another nurse. Eventhough I grew up in the Dearborn area as a child I knew little about the muslim faith. As I became a nurse and took care of many muslim patintes I leraned alot abot them from fellow co workers who were also muslim and from the patients themselves. I am greatful for the ability to learn about another culture. I have had nothing but positive experiences.

    I agree that this nurse should be fired for her actions. In nursing we are taught to have compassion for everyone, even if we don't agree with their religious views. For all we know this mulsim patient was born and raised in America. Even in war we care for our enemies. We care for the sick and injured, we also care for all the injured civillians.


    I agree totally with going to the BON, and contacting the director of nursing. I agree with her being sent home due to her coming out and yelling at the original poster at the desk. Unprofessional and insubordinate.

    One other thing to add, I was 15 when the Oklahoma City bombing occured, but I remember how we blamed the muslims, turns out it was one of our own. That just shows that Tazzi has a point that NOT all muslims are radical extremists. They are people too and have the same basic human needs we do. They also deserve compassionate care. This nurse WON'T change no matter how much counseling she receives. It was stated she is a devout Christian. She can't even follow her religion, let alone try to be comapssionate for someone she is different from.

    I just want to add I am not flaming anyone for thir personal beliefs. I just think to be a nurse you cannot judge by race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Everyone deserves compassionate care. Ang
  5. by   Daytonite
    Quote from ingelein
    this condescending paternalistic attitude pervades ltc , no wonder nurses don't want to work when management is in the building. now i know the manager types will yell ,"if the nurses weren't stupid, sloppy or slackers they wouldn't feel this way!" i get so disgusted reading the posts from these types of managers. i have read several posts from another style of manager that actually was a breath of fresh air. these other managers actually stated that the punitive , parental," you will do as i say, i am your don!!" just does not cut it in today's nursing world. nurses are becoming stronger more vocal and more educated, and more ready to bring forth legal action if so warranted must once again say to nurses out there , its up to us to hang on to our dignity and to be strong, continue to stick by your principles, even when facing a red faced screaming don. ok, now bring on the flames. i guess i kind of hijacked this thread, i'm sorry. i do feel the lpn did the wrong thing and was being prejudiced ,but daytonite's words just sent a wave of revulsion through me.
    i can assure you that i never was foolish enough to tell anyone they were "stupid, sloppy or slackers". statements like that are indicative of ignorant, poorly-educated people. nor, have i ever said, "you will do as i say, i am your don!!" these must be coming from past memories that i am sure must have hurt you or affected you terribly. i'm sorry if you ever had to face a "red faced screaming don", but please don't put me in that category of person without knowing anything about me. what i am responding to and commenting on is the way this situation was handled with regard to the duties of a supervisor. unless you have been in the role of a supervisor then you are missing my point entirely, and, yes, you have hijacked this thread to vent your anger.

    Quote from caroladybelle
    and, yes, daytonite, some of us are seeing it from the other side because we have been there. and, no, holidays do not change that. . .especially given that staff nurses get called all the time...on vacations..regardless of holidays ...on days off....on days requested off...on sick days to come in to work/come for a meeting. supervisors should not consider themselves immune.
    there is a difference between calling people to fill holes in a work schedule and calling people to inform them of staffing problems. filling the holes is a task. informing the boss is a judgment.
  6. by   banditrn
    Quote from caroladybelle
    Any time a care issue occurs that may send someone before the BON/gets suspended from work/commits a fireable offense, I AS A SUPERVISOR expect that I will be notified. It is part of a supervisor's job to know these. And, yes, Daytonite, some of us ARE seeing it from the other side because we have been there. And, no, holidays do not change that.

    Especially given that staff nurses get called all the time...on vacations..regardless of holidays ...on days off....on days REQUESTED off...on sick days to come in to work/come for a meeting. Supervisors should not consider themselves immune.
    :yeahthat: I agree, Carolady - I wouldn't want to be called for stupid stuff - but this situation sounds like it could get a little tense. If I were an admin, I'd want a 'heads up' about the situation BEFORE I walked in the door.

    And I agree about nurses getting called on their time OFF. I can't tell you how many vacations I went on - to return home to find my answering machine full of 'please give us a call'!
  7. by   imenid37
    I can't believe some people don't feel this young lady should lose her job. Being a nurse is about service to humankind, not just the kind of humans you personally approve of. I am not talking about having, for example, a devout Catholic working in an abortion clinic. I am talking about something like a devout Catholic treating a woman hemmorhaging in the ED, post-ab. It doesn't matter who this person is, this is a patient in need of your skills.

    As for the don't disturb me at home management types, all I can say is that when you acccept 24/7 responsibility for the unit, you accept the fact you are accessible and accountable for the unit 24/7, unless you are signed to another admin.

    When I was a regular staff nurse, management didn't seem to think my off-time was my own. I have been called many times to fill a hole. In some cases, I know the alternative to me working was a manager. If I was free, I did it. If not, I said no. They didn't hesitate to call me if I were really needed, so why should I wait to call them if I really needed one of them? Being an intimidator who rips a person's head off when he/she calls doesn't serve the staff or the intimidating manager or the patients. No one is talking about calling the DON because a dose of Tylenol was missed. This is BIG time serious stuff. Sure, lawyers,etc. don't call you on the weekend, but they could call you first thing, Mon. am.m...better to be on top of things. Do you want a call when you haven't addressed the situation or thought about what your response would be? Or worst of all, don't even know about it. The LPN could call before the cahrge nurse if all this waited until Mon. then the DON wouldn't have known what in the world was going on.
  8. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from daytonite
    there is a difference between calling people to fill holes in a work schedule and calling people to inform them of staffing problems. filling the holes is a task. informing the boss is a judgment.
    this was clearly not essentially a staffing issue, though staffing would be affected. this was disciplinary issue, and of more long term consequence.
  9. by   Daytonite
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    If a manager doesn't lay out a clear understanding of WHEN to be called, then those under that manager cannot be faulted for using best judgment. And, I don't have to be a manager to know that. Or rather, to the extent that a manager hoards such expertise for THEMSELVES, it is those managers that are guilty of bad praxis.. . If those in the trenches don't know what a manager wants, exactly whose fault is that?
    Um, that's what I said. I just said it before you and in a different way.
  10. by   Simplepleasures
    Daytonite ,first off I was never called a slacker, sloppy or stupid, I am referring to a post in which Cape Cod Mermaid used these words. Also I may be guilty of hijacking the thread, but I see that MANY other nurses have taken issue with what you posted.
  11. by   imenid37
    I think anyone in the right mind would have called their DON/manager because this is such an unusual situation. I don't think anyone could have been "trained" to handle this situation. I think it would have been a challenge for most managers/DON's, let alone charge nurses.
    Last edit by imenid37 on Nov 25, '06
  12. by   PANurseRN1
    Quote from daytonite
    i can assure you that i never was foolish enough to tell anyone they were "stupid, sloppy or slackers". statements like that are indicative of ignorant, poorly-educated people. nor, have i ever said, "you will do as i say, i am your don!!" these must be coming from past memories that i am sure must have hurt you or affected you terribly. i'm sorry if you ever had to face a "red faced screaming don", but please don't put me in that category of person without knowing anything about me. what i am responding to and commenting on is the way this situation was handled with regard to the duties of a supervisor. unless you have been in the role of a supervisor then you are missing my point entirely, and, yes, you have hijacked this thread to vent your anger.


    there is a difference between calling people to fill holes in a work schedule and calling people to inform them of staffing problems. filling the holes is a task. informing the boss is a judgment.
    saying that this was a "staffing problem" has to be the most creative understatement i have ever seen. it's almost nixonian.

    it's amazing to me that as a supervisor you see this as not a big issue. i wonder if you fully grasp the ramifications here. being a manager is about 24/7 accountability. if that means having to be called at home, too bad. if this doesn't qualify as a reason to call a manager at home, i don't know what would.
  13. by   Retired R.N.
    Quote from Miss Mab
    I can't believe I had to make it to page 13 before I could relate to some of the responses.

    In my opinion, this nurse is in dire need of some education and sensitivity training. Fired--probably not unless she can't comply. BON? Come on, people. The way I read it she was sent home--she didn't walk out of the facility. The girl sounds like a twit---you can't lose your license for that or we'll REALLY have a shortage then...

    Finally, I'm sorry the OP had to deal with this situation at all---but why do I get the feeling that the issue was more of her not doing things your way---"in private--in private". Sure, that would've been ideal but she wasn't getting it. You did say you would have arranged for her to switch if only you had talked "in private"

    I don't know---this LPN doesn't sound like a winner at the present time--but firing and certainly BON ---WAY overboard....
    I think we all agree that nurses should not be allowed to discriminate against patients because of their religion, but this situation seems to be one very good example of a charge nurse not knowing how to handle an emotional outburst from an employee under her and retaliating against the LPN because the situation made her feel inadequate.

    I am really surprised that nobody has suggested that the OP could use some more training in how to handle emotional problems like this to keep them from escalating.

    The most depressing fact that I see in this whole situation is the fact that there are so many holier-than-thou thought-police nurses who want to crucify this young LPN just because they think she has a bad attitude and they consider her beyond redemption. Sadly, I think that all too many nurses are all too willing to eat their young.

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