Shocked At Nurses Actions Tonight

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Nov 25, 2006

Try calling your nurse managers at their homes to tell them about someone you sent home because they refused to take care of a patient for any reason and see what kind of reaction YOU get from your boss. When I was a nurse manager, I would have torn your head off and put it where the sun don't shine if you'd done something like that with me. Work issues need to stay at work. My time at home is my time unless I instruct you otherwise.

MY managers would be totally supportive, as the situation has many legal ramifications as well as it will seriously affect staffing.

But then I also work for managers that do not believe in med techs, either.

melpn · Nov 25, 2006

While I am highly offended by her attitudes, ignorance and total lack of professionalism and understanding, I do not believe she should have been fired. Yes, switch the assignment of that pt. to another nurse for that shift. But cultural sensitivity training and a reminder of what her job responsibilities are would have been a better idea; otherwise she will just take her ignorance and bigotry elsewhere. If she can't manage to change her attitude after that then there is no choice but to fire her. Education, in my book, is always the way to go first. Perhaps a better understanding of Muslim culture would have changed her outlook, though I doubt it. Bigotry is pretty deeply ingrained but she should have been given the chance. A pretty sad situation. But you are to be congratulated for taking action on her behavior instead of letting it slide. M

goody1shoe · Nov 25, 2006

While I am highly offended by her attitudes, ignorance and total lack of professionalism and understanding, I do not believe she should have been fired. Yes, switch the assignment of that pt. to another nurse for that shift. But cultural sensitivity training and a reminder of what her job responsibilities are would have been a better idea; otherwise she will just take her ignorance and bigotry elsewhere. A pretty sad situation. But you are to be congratulated for taking action on her behavior instead of letting it slide. M

Well said melpn. I will be honest and admit that although I have never turned down an assignment or have I ever mistreated a patient, I have had patients, particularly those who are drug addicts that I have a hard time treating like I do my other patients. I have very little tolerance for them but they never know it. They get their drugs on schedule just as requested without any lip from me. I just can't help the way I feel and I am honest about it to all of you. We all have certain types we have a hard time tolerating. The key is to deal with it within yourself. Be more mature.

If a nurse came to me and honestly and respectfully asked me to change her assignment because she had a problem with the patient I would comply and not report it unless it became a habit. I agree this nurse should have been sent home. I don't agree with demanding she get fired or calling the BON, not that that's not the right thing to do it's just not your job to do that. Leave it to the powers that be.

kukukajoo, LPN · Nov 25, 2006

You have to remember to replace, rehire and retrain a new employee is quite expensive to a facility. To attempt to retrain and redirect the offending nurse is the most cost effective AND morally correct way to deal with this matter. If retraining does not work, then firing of an otherwise capable nurse should most definately be considered as a last resort.

I am not condoning bigotry, rather agreeing with others that by firing, you are not fixing the problem or changing her attitudes. By retraining, the risk is keeping an otherwise good and capable nurse with newfound attitudes of tolerance and understanding.

PPHawk · Nov 25, 2006

I agree with emsboss and jill48 completely. The only other comment I'd make is that she can't be fired for abandoning her patient if she was sent home as the original post said.

There are some people in this world who are completely intolerant of others' fears or prejudices. Until that changes, scared nurses like this one will continue to be sent home or fired. Let's forget about tolerance, and start embracing diversity.

Daytonite, BSN, RN · Nov 25, 2006

this particular issue has legal if not 'political' ramifications. . .It sparks lots of emotions. . .A simple phone call in this case is an essential CYA.

Keeping a rein on one's emotions applies to supervision and management staff as well. Just like nurses are advised to not become emotionally involved with their patients, this also applies to supervision and management staff not to become emotionally involved with employee issues. What's the difference if you CYA at the time of an incident, a day later, or first thing when the boss comes back on Monday morning?

If you are calling a "higher up" because you really don't know what to do in a situation and you need their advice--OK. Do it once. That might be justified because (1) of the potential fault of administrator or DON in not preparing you for the situation adequately ahead of time, (2) you truly have a very unique situation that you have never faced before, or (3) you are just plain incompetent at your job. Legal issues of the nature talked about in this thread can wait until the next business day. Lawyers don't like to be disturbed with this kind of routine stuff on holidays either. The only legal emergency I can think of would have been if this young LPN had gotten violent or threatened violence. Then, the appropriate legal authority to call would have been the police department--to remove her rear end from the facility if she was refusing to go.

MY managers would be totally supportive, as the situation has many legal ramifications as well as it will seriously affect staffing.

Please enlighten me as to these legal ramifications that are so-o-o-o serious as to disturb someone on their holiday. As someone who has a great deal of experience in supervision and management, I'm saying that call-offs, walks-off and no-shows go on all the time in LTC, and even hospitals. It happens at the last minute before a shift begins. It happens that people don't show up 10 minutes into their shift. Well-trained supervisors are taught how to deal with those situations. Just as a good charge nurse instructs his/her staff to perform care correctly, so too does a good DON instruct his/her supervision staff how to handle these situations. If you have never been a supervisor that had to deal with staffing issues then you cannot understand the job function of staffing. It is not as easy as you would think. You are looking at it from only one side of the issue. When I was training in supervision it took new nursing supervisors 6 months--6 months--to learn the nuances of staffing. That applied to ALL new supervisors. Tell me, what nursing skill or function were any of you a "master" at after performing it only once?

subee, MSN, CRNA · Nov 25, 2006

You have to remember to replace, rehire and retrain a new employee is quite expensive to a facility. To attempt to retrain and redirect the offending nurse is the most cost effective AND morally correct way to deal with this matter. If retraining does not work, then firing of an otherwise capable nurse should most definately be considered as a last resort.
I am not condoning bigotry, rather agreeing with others that by firing, you are not fixing the problem or changing her attitudes. By retraining, the risk is keeping an otherwise good and capable nurse with newfound attitudes of tolerance and understanding.

If she makes it known that she's a devout "Christian" and active in her church, she's probably not trainable, if she can't even follow her own religion. Let the BON "train" her. Since when to nurses get to choose who's gonna get cared for and who's not? Who WANTS to take care of a child molester? Just because you don't want to, doesn't mean you don't have to. Its part of your job and if you can't do it, you should be asked to move on.

Simplepleasures · Nov 25, 2006

Subordinate help get ticked off for one reason or another in LTC facilities all the time and act up. It happens a lot on the off shifts. When you are a supervisor in one of these facilities you have to learn how to handle these situations smoothly. 99.9% of the time it sure doesn't require a phone call to the DON at home. As a supervisor I learned a long time ago how to handle these fools and the scenes they want to subject everyone to. It is what it is—attention-getting behavior. A supervisor can't be intimidated by those they supervise. I have no argument with anyone's personal views about nurses being non-judgmental, but it applies to all nurses, those in leadership positions as well. One's job responsibilities or actions should not be driven by their emotional feelings toward another employee, but by the breaking of rules and the application of discipline.
Try calling your nurse managers at their homes to tell them about someone you sent home because they refused to take care of a patient for any reason and see what kind of reaction YOU get from your boss. When I was a nurse manager, I would have torn your head off and put it where the sun don't shine if you'd done something like that with me. Work issues need to stay at work. My time at home is my time unless I instruct you otherwise.

This condesending paternalistic attitude pervades LTC , no wonder nurses dont want to work when management is in the building.Now I know the manager types will yell ,"If the nurses werent stupid, sloppy or slackers they wouldnt feel this way!" I get So digusted reading the posts from these types of managers. I have read several posts from another style of manager that actually was a breath of fresh air. These other managers actually stated that the punitive , parental,"You will do as I say, I am your DON!!" just does not cut it in todays nursing world. Nurses are becoming stronger more vocal and more educated,and more ready to bring forth legal action if so warrented.I must once again say to nurses out there , its up to us to hang on to our dignity and to be strong, continue to stick by your principles, even when facing a red faced screaming DON.OK, now bring on the flames. I guess I kind of hijacked this thread, Im sorry.I do feel the LPN did the wrong thing and was being prejudiced ,but Daytonite's words just sent a wave of revulsion through me.

kukukajoo, LPN · Nov 25, 2006

Subee- I disagree with your assumption that she cant be taught.

When I was a kid we got a cat we named killer. We wanted to train it like a dog and did. Nobody told us that training a cat to do tricks was impossible so we never knew you could not train a cat.

Well Killer rolled over, sat pretty, shook with each paw or both on command, played dead and fetched- actually brought back sticks and small balls, paper balls, etc. better than most dogs! I think she did more but can't think of them right now!

PANurseRN1 · Nov 25, 2006

You have to remember to replace, rehire and retrain a new employee is quite expensive to a facility. To attempt to retrain and redirect the offending nurse is the most cost effective AND morally correct way to deal with this matter. If retraining does not work, then firing of an otherwise capable nurse should most definately be considered as a last resort.
I am not condoning bigotry, rather agreeing with others that by firing, you are not fixing the problem or changing her attitudes. By retraining, the risk is keeping an otherwise good and capable nurse with newfound attitudes of tolerance and understanding.

There are some people who do not deserve to be in the profession, and we don't need them. This nurse is a bigot. It's doubtful that "retraining" is going to change her poisonous views. We do a disservice to our pts. and our own by trying to help people like her.

She may be a technically skilled nurse, but she is not a good nurse. I wouldn't want her taking care of me or mine.

Miss Mab · Nov 25, 2006

I can't believe I had to make it to page 13 before I could relate to some of the responses.

In my opinion, this nurse is in dire need of some education and sensitivity training. Fired--probably not unless she can't comply. BON? Come on, people. The way I read it she was sent home--she didn't walk out of the facility. The girl sounds like a twit---you can't lose your license for that or we'll REALLY have a shortage then...

Finally, I'm sorry the OP had to deal with this situation at all---but why do I get the feeling that the issue was more of her not doing things your way---"in private--in private". Sure, that would've been ideal but she wasn't getting it. You did say you would have arranged for her to switch if only you had talked "in private"

I don't know---this LPN doesn't sound like a winner at the present time--but firing and certainly BON ---WAY overboard....

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Nov 25, 2006

I work part time at a local SNF / rehab faciliety. On PM and NOC shift it is staffed with 3 or 4 LPNs and one RN charge nurse (tonight it was me). One of our LPNs is a sweet young girl from a very small town near by. She is in a BSN program to become an RN as well. She was late to work and I assinged her to care for a new admit who is recovering from a serious MVA. She took report and went to meet her patient. She came back out of the room about 5 min later very upset. She demanded to know why I hadn't told her the patient was a muslim in report. I asked her why it mattered. She said that "those people are all trying to kill us!" and she couldn't understand why the patient was even admited or even given medical care in America! She flatly refused to provide care for this person. Nothing I said to her had any affect on her. She actually got angry at me for trying to explain why this person needs and deserves nurses care.
I ended up sending her home without pay and doing to work myself. I am only part time at this place and while I supervise LPNs and CNAs I am not their boss with the power to hire and fire. I did write a letter to the DON explaining the stuation and recomending that the LPN be fired. I also intend to inform our state board of nursing of her actions. [/quote/]
The LPN did clearly "abandon" the patient. There was clearly no LEGITIMATE NURSING reason that the LPN could not care for the patient. There were adequate attempts made to reason with her. She presumably has been educated (as most of us in Nursing are) to multicultural competency. The LPN also demonstrates that she feels that the patient does not deserve care at all. And she is angered by those that attempt educate her.
This is also an issue that will certainly come up again.
This does make it it relevant to the BON. She did clearly abandon a patient, for no acceptable reason. She also has made it apparent that she is not easily amenable to changing her beliefs. She also has indicated that she will not care for a signicant portion of the population.
Any time a care issue occurs that may send someone before the BON/gets suspended from work/commits a fireable offense, I AS A SUPERVISOR expect that I will be notified. It is part of a supervisor's job to know these. And, yes, Daytonite, some of us ARE seeing it from the other side because we have been there. And, no, holidays do not change that.
Especially given that staff nurses get called all the time...on vacations..regardless of holidays ...on days off....on days REQUESTED off...on sick days to come in to work/come for a meeting. Supervisors should not consider themselves immune.
As far as legalities...there will be the usual dust up that accompanies any case of someone sent home for legitimate reasons. "My religion/personal beliefs/freedom of speech was violated - I should not be expected to overcome these issues for work - they are picking on me because I am not politically correct "- all the usual excuses that people make. While they do not have any merit, they do serve to muddy the waters, and careful documentation is needed and proper notifications are required.