Covert Pelvic Exams??! - page 3

I can't find a link to the story, but read in my local paper today that some medical schools have decided to stop allowing 2 to 4 medical students do pelvic exams on female patients who are... Read More

  1. by   Jay-Jay
    I remember reading in a doctor's bio about how appendectomies are usually the first surgery attempted by surgical students. This particular student lost his grip on the appendix as it was coming out, and contaminated the patient's peritoneum with fecal matter and whatever other bacteria were growing in the appendix.

    I've been exceedingly wary of teaching hospitals ever since!

    Okay, if a student wants to do a procedure on me while I'm conscious, I don't mind...but I want to KNOW what's going on!
  2. by   SmilingBluEyes
    This really makes me ill. It is unethical, the way Kev describes it and must be stopped. BRAVO to those med students who showed some ethics. BOOO to the experienced teaching doctors who did not.
  3. by   RN2B4SUR
    Now im curious how my school does this?! I am also curious how they handle the male student nurse during the OB/GYN semester? Any thoughts from past students in their schools?
  4. by   emily_mom
    Originally posted by RN2B4SUR
    Now im curious how my school does this?! I am also curious how they handle the male student nurse during the OB/GYN semester? Any thoughts from past students in their schools?
    We don't do vag checks in OB/GYN rotation, as we do it after our first semester. You can choose OB/GYN as your senior preceptorship and then they teach you.

    I had 2 medical students in the room when I delivered. No one told me they were students, and I was in too much shock to notice. They kept shoving their hands up my yahoo and finally my husband said, "Dr. So & So said she is at 10. Could you please stop?" They weren't gentle about it and it took them forever. I wanted to shove my fist up theirs to see how they liked it...
  5. by   Rapheal
    Sheesh!!!!! Where is the respect and dignity for the patient? What about the patients' right to privacy? This type of thing makes me furious. I am proud of the students who brought this practice to light and refused to be a part of it.
  6. by   Dayray
    Ok mabey I am ignorent but I have to ask. Why would any med student other then an OBGYN need to do more then a few vag exams?

    I work at a hospital that trains residents and while they do vag exams on patients (as part of their care of that patient) I Have never witnessed a vag exam for educational rasons only.

    I mean if the med student isent going to work in OBGYN why do they need to learn to do vag exams?

    I am currently orenting to L&D and have had to learn to do pelvic exams. I have never done a vag exam on a patient soley as a learning experance and when I first started it was only after a patient had recived an epidural and it was explained that I was training and my preseptor would have to verify my exam (by repeating it) I dident have anyone refuse when it was explained like this. I don't see why it would be nessasary to do pelvic exams secretly and on patents who dident need them. They arent really that hard to learn and god knows there are enugh women that have to endure them as part of their treatment to provide adaquet learning experance to students.

    At my hospital we also have nursing students doing clincals. My directors position on students and vag exams is "OBGYN is a speacalty area, if they arent going to do OBGYN nursing, they dont need to laern vag exams and if they are then they can get trained when they are orenting" so we don't teach them vag exams. I tottaly agree with this policy and don't see why doctors need to be much different. during residancy they will have OBGYN patients and can learn what they need to know then as part of caring for that patient.

    Maybe I am missing something but the whole thing just seems to me like part of the whole doctors are gods and can do anything they want thing (especialy to women).
  7. by   emily_mom
    Originally posted by Dayray
    Ok mabey I am ignorent but I have to ask. Why would any med student other then an OBGYN need to do more then a few vag exams?

    I work at a hospital that trains residents and while they do vag exams on patients (as part of their care of that patient) I Have never witnessed a vag exam for educational rasons only.

    I mean if the med student isent going to work in OBGYN why do they need to learn to do vag exams?

    I am currently orenting to L&D and have had to learn to do pelvic exams. I have never done a vag exam on a patient soley as a learning experance and when I first started it was only after a patient had recived an epidural and it was explained that I was training and my preseptor would have to verify my exam (by repeating it) I dident have anyone refuse when it was explained like this. I don't see why it would be nessasary to do pelvic exams secretly and on patents who dident need them. They arent really that hard to learn and god knows there are enugh women that have to endure them as part of their treatment to provide adaquet learning experance to students.

    At my hospital we also have nursing students doing clincals. My directors position on students and vag exams is "OBGYN is a speacalty area, if they arent going to do OBGYN nursing, they dont need to laern vag exams and if they are then they can get trained when they are orenting" so we don't teach them vag exams. I tottaly agree with this policy and don't see why doctors need to be much different. during residancy they will have OBGYN patients and can learn what they need to know then as part of caring for that patient.

    Maybe I am missing something but the whole thing just seems to me like part of the whole doctors are gods and can do anything they want thing (especialy to women).
    I have no idea why, but each one checked me twice, on top of the nurse when I came, the change of shift nurse and the doctor. I was dilated to 10 when I got there, so I'm unsure as to why so many felt the need to shove their hands in there.

    The residents were not gentle at all and kept telling the other one, "I don't think she's ten. It's more like 8." Then the other one said, "Well, let me check again." I was about ready to check myself or kick them in the head (woops, strong contraction...). They gave no thought to whether I was in the middle of a contraction or not. I was extremely annoyed and will never have another baby in that hospital nor allow residents in my room. Yes, they need to learn too, but not at my expense.

    If we choose and are accepted into the Senior Preceptorship in OB/GYN, we are taught to do vag checks. They take limited people and those that do it usually stay on in OB.

    Kristy
  8. by   mark_LD_RN
    emily_mom and dayray the reason they do it is to learn, it takes time and practice to learn how to find what station and what position the babies head is in, it's not just a matter of effacement and dilation. but of presentation and movement

    but back to the topic, it is horrible that someone would do such a thing with out consent, they should no better. I personally would want to kill some one if they did that to my wife or daughter. or even myself if i was butt in the air for a procedure and they did that to me
  9. by   mark_LD_RN
    Originally posted by RN2B4SUR
    Now im curious how my school does this?! I am also curious how they handle the male student nurse during the OB/GYN semester? Any thoughts from past students in their schools?


    first let's lose the term male student nurse ok. he is a student nurse plain and simple. how they handle it depends on the school and the instructor. at my school I was treated just like any other student once i was checked off on a procedure or skill i was on my own.

    just as i am now, I do pelvic exams all night long i ask my patients permission before i start and ask who they want present, to me they can have visitor ,another nurses or just me its all the same. have never had a problem and don't every plan on having one. to me if the patient trusts me we are fine if either of us is uncofortable I seek to trade patients with some on. as to me it requires mutual respect between me and the patient.
  10. by   semstr
    wow! as unethical as it goes!!
  11. by   sixes
    I had a similar experience as emilymom. My second child was a transverse labor. My Gyn asked if a few of his students could be present and assist with the delivery.
    I said ok. In marched 10 yes 10 students.
    I was fully dialated and the shoulder was stuck on my pelvic bone.
    I tolerated 2 students examining me after that I flat out refused. During delivery my tail bone was broken.
    The students were very well mannered and a few stopped by after the ++++ painful delivey to see how we were doing.
    I am all for teaching and learning as long as the client knows what is to be expected of them.
    I wonder how a man would feel about having his prostate examined 10 times in a row?????
  12. by   caroladybelle
    Some comments:

    All MDs need to have some training in doing a proper exam. A pap smear, breast exam, etc. is a basic important part of a physical for all women. I get my checkup from an Internist and have never seen an "OB/Gyn". I prefer having my overall health taken care by one person (do see onco for ca followup and GI for ulcerative colitis - the specifics).

    A gyn exam under anesthesia is not good training for another reason. MDs need to exam a concious pt to learn to give a NON- PAINFUL exam. How many of us have been in significant discomfort during a pelvic? And then had another MD do an exam that was relatively painless. If you do exams on anesthetized pts - you will not learn how to make the pt comfortable, learn to have them cooperate with positioning, learn the techniques to make the procedure more tolerable, learn which behaviors are offensive and which are acceptable.

    Real pts wiggle, move, clench, bear down and say "Ouch" (Or "What the $%^&#@ do you think that you are doing down there, you @#$?") and med students need training in handling those behaviors.
  13. by   emily_mom
    Like sixes and I have both experienced, you can't say you would let it happen to you until you're in that position. My child was crashing (HR in the 50's) and they were rushing to get her out. I don't think that's an appropriate time to be shaking dice up there.

    I agree they need to learn...it's just not going to happen with this chick!

    When I've done clinical rotations, I've always respected the decision of the patient to deny me performing a procedure on them. Some people just don't trust students, just as I don't trust med students.

    It's a personal choice.

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