Covert Pelvic Exams??!

Mimi Wheeze · Mar 13, 2003

I'm glad you're doing well, Bernie!

I wonder if men get an audience when they are drugged with butt-up in the air having hemorrhoid surgery.

Of course, men would probably just enjoy it.

kids · Mar 13, 2003

I have anesthetized for multiple gyn procedures.

Some were done at teaching hospitals.

I was never asked or told that students may do pelvic exams on me, had I been I would have refused.

I can't help but wonder how much if any of my post-procedure pain was caused by the fumblings of an inept student.

I feel kind of sick now.

Jay-Jay, RN · Mar 13, 2003

I remember reading in a doctor's bio about how appendectomies are usually the first surgery attempted by surgical students. This particular student lost his grip on the appendix as it was coming out, and contaminated the patient's peritoneum with fecal matter and whatever other bacteria were growing in the appendix.

I've been exceedingly wary of teaching hospitals ever since!

Okay, if a student wants to do a procedure on me while I'm conscious, I don't mind...but I want to KNOW what's going on!

SmilingBluEyes · Mar 13, 2003

This really makes me ill. It is unethical, the way Kev describes it and must be stopped. BRAVO to those med students who showed some ethics. BOOO to the experienced teaching doctors who did not.

RN2B4SUR · Mar 13, 2003

Now im curious how my school does this?! I am also curious how they handle the male student nurse during the OB/GYN semester? Any thoughts from past students in their schools?

emily_mom · Mar 13, 2003

Originally posted by RN2B4SUR
Now im curious how my school does this?! I am also curious how they handle the male student nurse during the OB/GYN semester? Any thoughts from past students in their schools?

We don't do vag checks in OB/GYN rotation, as we do it after our first semester. You can choose OB/GYN as your senior preceptorship and then they teach you.

I had 2 medical students in the room when I delivered. No one told me they were students, and I was in too much shock to notice. They kept shoving their hands up my yahoo and finally my husband said, "Dr. So & So said she is at 10. Could you please stop?" They weren't gentle about it and it took them forever. I wanted to shove my fist up theirs to see how they liked it... :rolleyes:

Rapheal · Mar 13, 2003

Sheesh!!!!! Where is the respect and dignity for the patient? What about the patients' right to privacy? This type of thing makes me furious. I am proud of the students who brought this practice to light and refused to be a part of it.

Dayray, RN · Mar 14, 2003

Ok mabey I am ignorent but I have to ask. Why would any med student other then an OBGYN need to do more then a few vag exams?

I work at a hospital that trains residents and while they do vag exams on patients (as part of their care of that patient) I Have never witnessed a vag exam for educational rasons only.

I mean if the med student isent going to work in OBGYN why do they need to learn to do vag exams?

I am currently orenting to L&D and have had to learn to do pelvic exams. I have never done a vag exam on a patient soley as a learning experance and when I first started it was only after a patient had recived an epidural and it was explained that I was training and my preseptor would have to verify my exam (by repeating it) I dident have anyone refuse when it was explained like this. I don't see why it would be nessasary to do pelvic exams secretly and on patents who dident need them. They arent really that hard to learn and god knows there are enugh women that have to endure them as part of their treatment to provide adaquet learning experance to students.

At my hospital we also have nursing students doing clincals. My directors position on students and vag exams is "OBGYN is a speacalty area, if they arent going to do OBGYN nursing, they dont need to laern vag exams and if they are then they can get trained when they are orenting" so we don't teach them vag exams. I tottaly agree with this policy and don't see why doctors need to be much different. during residancy they will have OBGYN patients and can learn what they need to know then as part of caring for that patient.

Maybe I am missing something but the whole thing just seems to me like part of the whole doctors are gods and can do anything they want thing (especialy to women).

emily_mom · Mar 14, 2003

Originally posted by Dayray
Ok mabey I am ignorent but I have to ask. Why would any med student other then an OBGYN need to do more then a few vag exams?

I work at a hospital that trains residents and while they do vag exams on patients (as part of their care of that patient) I Have never witnessed a vag exam for educational rasons only.

I mean if the med student isent going to work in OBGYN why do they need to learn to do vag exams?

I am currently orenting to L&D and have had to learn to do pelvic exams. I have never done a vag exam on a patient soley as a learning experance and when I first started it was only after a patient had recived an epidural and it was explained that I was training and my preseptor would have to verify my exam (by repeating it) I dident have anyone refuse when it was explained like this. I don't see why it would be nessasary to do pelvic exams secretly and on patents who dident need them. They arent really that hard to learn and god knows there are enugh women that have to endure them as part of their treatment to provide adaquet learning experance to students.

At my hospital we also have nursing students doing clincals. My directors position on students and vag exams is "OBGYN is a speacalty area, if they arent going to do OBGYN nursing, they dont need to laern vag exams and if they are then they can get trained when they are orenting" so we don't teach them vag exams. I tottaly agree with this policy and don't see why doctors need to be much different. during residancy they will have OBGYN patients and can learn what they need to know then as part of caring for that patient.

Maybe I am missing something but the whole thing just seems to me like part of the whole doctors are gods and can do anything they want thing (especialy to women).

I have no idea why, but each one checked me twice, on top of the nurse when I came, the change of shift nurse and the doctor. I was dilated to 10 when I got there, so I'm unsure as to why so many felt the need to shove their hands in there.

The residents were not gentle at all and kept telling the other one, "I don't think she's ten. It's more like 8." Then the other one said, "Well, let me check again." I was about ready to check myself or kick them in the head (woops, strong contraction...:)). They gave no thought to whether I was in the middle of a contraction or not. I was extremely annoyed and will never have another baby in that hospital nor allow residents in my room. Yes, they need to learn too, but not at my expense.

If we choose and are accepted into the Senior Preceptorship in OB/GYN, we are taught to do vag checks. They take limited people and those that do it usually stay on in OB.

Kristy

mark_LD_RN · Mar 14, 2003

emily_mom and dayray the reason they do it is to learn, it takes time and practice to learn how to find what station and what position the babies head is in, it's not just a matter of effacement and dilation. but of presentation and movement:)

but back to the topic, it is horrible that someone would do such a thing with out consent, they should no better. I personally would want to kill some one if they did that to my wife or daughter. or even myself if i was butt in the air for a procedure and they did that to me:)

mark_LD_RN · Mar 14, 2003

Originally posted by RN2B4SUR
Now im curious how my school does this?! I am also curious how they handle the male student nurse during the OB/GYN semester? Any thoughts from past students in their schools?

first let's lose the term male student nurse:) ok. he is a student nurse plain and simple. how they handle it depends on the school and the instructor. at my school I was treated just like any other student once i was checked off on a procedure or skill i was on my own.

just as i am now, I do pelvic exams all night long i ask my patients permission before i start and ask who they want present, to me they can have visitor ,another nurses or just me its all the same. have never had a problem and don't every plan on having one. to me if the patient trusts me we are fine if either of us is uncofortable I seek to trade patients with some on. as to me it requires mutual respect between me and the patient.

semstr · Mar 14, 2003

wow! as unethical as it goes!!