Working over 40 hours... still no overtime pay? Legal?

calivianya, BSN, RN · Aug 3, 2016

My job does the same thing. Education, training, meetings, etc. are not counted towards overtime. Only pure shifts worked in my regular position.

On the bright side, my job is not stingy about education hours. I can literally go to any symposium, conference, whatever without asking permission first, clock in, and get paid. I love that! My PRN job requires pay for education to be approved - even if the class is mandatory, I might not get paid for it.

KelRN215, BSN, RN · Aug 4, 2016

Nursing care facilities are different, and may opt for the "8 and 80" method. They pay OT after 8 hours in a shift, or 80 hours worked in a 14 day period. Fact Sheet - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - U.S. Department of Labor

It's 8 AND 80, not 8 or 80. If they are using this system, they must pay overtime for all hours worked over 8 in a shift and over 80 in 14 days. So under this system, nurses working 12 hr shifts would get overtime for the last 4 hours of those shifts.

WKShadowNP, DNP, APRN · Aug 4, 2016

Well, I get paid for my education time and if I go over 40, I do get my OT. Thank God my system got that right.

Which reminds me, I have to do BLS next month. It'll probably take me right to 40 hours.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Aug 4, 2016

@NurseGirl525 I stand corrected. :facepalm:

CraigB-RN, MSN, RN · Aug 5, 2016

They don't actually have to pay you $4 for education time. They can give you comp time.

The key for all these is they have to be consistent and follow their own policies. You will find terms like productive, vs unproductive time and similar terms. As other people have mentioned the overtime can be pay period vs weekly, so if you work 50 hours one week and 30 hours the next. No overtime.

The important thing is for you to read your particular unit/hospital policies and make sure they are following their own policies.

arobins72 · Aug 5, 2016

My facility does not pay overtime for "unproductive" hours such as education classes or meetings.

KelRN215, BSN, RN · Aug 6, 2016

They don't actually have to pay you $4 for education time. They can give you comp time.
The key for all these is they have to be consistent and follow their own policies. You will find terms like productive, vs unproductive time and similar terms. As other people have mentioned the overtime can be pay period vs weekly, so if you work 50 hours one week and 30 hours the next. No overtime.
The important thing is for you to read your particular unit/hospital policies and make sure they are following their own policies.

If you are a salaried employee, you can be given comp time.

If you are an hourly employee, you must be paid time and a half for all hours worked over than 40 in a week and education hours are hours worked, per the law.

CraigB-RN, MSN, RN · Aug 6, 2016

Be carefull of any barracks lawyer that tells you things are black k and white, and that includes me. Although as a Chief Nursing Officer I was involved in wage and earning decisions, I/we realized attorneys who specialize in this. Some of the areas of the law that seem to be spelled,out clearly get broken all the time. For example, you still see today. class action suits about not getting paid when you have to work over break time. ( Big one at a VA facility here recently, but the attorneys are the only ones who will get much money)

Therenare many exceptions and grey areas. In FSLA. The 8/80'rule that allows for healthcare, police,,fire to be paid based on 8 hour day or 80 your pay period. The rules for compensatory pay are based on the fact we are professional. There are specific rules for education.

There is a clause in the FSLA that allows for comp time, but it should be at the overtime rate, so for every hour over, you must be compensated at the 1.5 rate for somempeople. We won't talk about public sector employees. It gets even more complicated,

If it happens routinely, and you feel your getting short changed, your next step is Asking Boad of Labor, an attorney who specialize in labor law, or union rep, or all three.

Ask specific questions, and ask for explanation of terms. The common conversational use of terms like overtime, comp time etc, may have different legal meanings.

DONT TRUST ME OR ANYONE ELSE HERE! Go ask an expert if your feeling short changed.

Axgrinder · Aug 7, 2016

None of the people I work with in my job understood we were salary until orientation. We were all given an hourly rate by HR at hiring. As salary employees we are not entitled to over time pay, just straight time. Lame. Lame. Lame!

BeenThere2012, ASN, RN · Aug 7, 2016

I have seen some facilities count OT as over 80 hrs per two weeks. When I worked FT 12 hr shifts I had a cycle of 36 hr week (Tues-Wed-Thurs), 1 week off, and 72 hr week (Mon-Tues-Wed, Fri-Sat-Sun); this is how they avoided paying OT for that 72 hr week.
But if you are still working FT hrs and education besides, that's got to at least be over that minimum standard of 80 hrs per 2 weeks. I'd be taking Extra Pickles' advice.

I had a similar situation, but it was a contract position where I agreed to the pay without OT every other week. This sounds different in your case since these are extra hours on top of your usual schedule. However, I have also seen employers say say that "their week" started on a certain day, and since part of my hours fell on the first day of their next week, it didn't count as OT, even though I worked an extra shift. I agree you need to contact your labor board for this. Just because they are getting away with this, doesn't make it legal. Be prepared for some crappy treatment if you find out they are in fact not paying their employees according to the law. It happened to me once when I went to our union and HR had to re-do ALL the pay records for the entire unit for the previous year. My co-workers were very happy, but my manager wasn't.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Aug 7, 2016

I recently worked two additional shifts, (full shifts of 13+ hours) to orient into a leadership role the unit asked me (well really, told me) I was going to do, in addition to my regular 3 shifts of 13+ hours per week, totally approximately 56 hours in one week. I worked this many hours another week as well. I asked whether or not this entitles me to overtime pay and was met with the response that they are "education hours". And the topic was shot down from there. I asked colleagues/friends and no one else has received this answer. Has anyone heard of this? Am I being blatantly swindled here? And no we are not unionized. HELP?!

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. However, I've seen this in many hospitals that aren't unionized. (Another fabulous reason to BE unionized.)

Yes, I have heard of this, and it's fairly common, especially in non-unionized hospitals. Non-clinical hours are paid at straight time, no matter how many hours you've spent at the bedside. If you know about the class far enough in advance, you may be able to include it in your hours (work fewer clinical hours), but that's going to depend upon the mood of your manager.

Your manager can classify the hours however she wants, and is not, in many places, obliged to pay overtime for education hours. You would have to check your hospital's policy on that one. It's probably in an employee handbook of some sort that you were given early on in your employment and then forgot about because it didn't apply to your situation at that time.

Another consideration is pay periods. My position (at the bedside) is salaried, which is a real rip off when it comes to overtime. (If you ever get a choice, take the hourly position over the salaried one.). We can work up to four hours over our shift without receiving overtime; at 4 hours plus, it's OT.). If you worked 56 hours in the last week of the pay period and only 24 hours the first week, that's only 80 hours in two weeks. No overtime. Be very careful of when your pay period begins and ends. Is it at 12:01 AM on Sunday? Or the start of day shift on Monday? If you came in early on Saturday night because your friend on the day shift needed off to go to her kid's dance recital, your four hours of overtime occurred on the LAST pay period, not on the one that started at 12:01 AM on Sunday.

How much do you like your job? Because if your manager already shot you down by telling you it's education hours (or non-clinical hours) and she's paying you straight time, you CAN pursue it by going over her head. But it's not going to endear you to your manager and you may find your future opportunities at that place of employment become limited.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Aug 7, 2016

Fact Sheet - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - U.S. Department of Labor
Overtime:
Employers must also pay all non-exempt employees a rate of time-and-one-half the regular rate of pay for each hour of overtime worked. Nursing care facilities may pay employees overtime after 40 hours in a 7 day workweek or alternatively, use the "8 and 80" system. Under the "8 and 80" system, the nursing care facility may pay employees -- with whom they have a prior agreement -- overtime for any hours worked after more than 8 hours in a day and more than 80 hours in a 14-day period.
Lectures, Meetings and Training Programs:
Attendance at lectures, meetings, training programs and similar activities need not be counted as working time only if four criteria are met, namely: it is outside normal hours, it is voluntary, not job related, and no other work is concurrently performed.
Common Industry Problems
Non-exempt employees must be compensated for any time during which they perform activities that benefit the employer.
The most common violation in the nursing care industry is the failure of employers to pay for all the hours worked. This uncompensated time most frequently occurs when employers fail to pay for work performed:
Before and after a worker's scheduled shift;
During an employee's scheduled meal period; and While employees are attending staff meetings and compensable training sessions.

And I guess the way around that is to hire nurses as "exempt" employees.