who will need to undergo Substantially Equivalent Competency (SEC) assessment

j8win · Jan 15, 2009

thanks!janfrn..yup, i guess i have to go for plan number 2 and forget about nursing in Canada. I am still trying to think of what to do next..

j8win · Mar 5, 2009

hi!janfrn,5cats and everybody,

I got a letter of invitation to come to surrey B.C from CRNBC, for the SEC assessment, honestly i have decided already not to pursue with this assessment because i know that it will cost me so much to travel to Canada. I just want to ask.....if anybody of you have gone through the same process already.

It was stated in the invitation that i have to apply for a TEMPORARY RESIDENT VISA to attend SEC. (I was expecting that they want me to travel on tourist visa)

I just want to ask to those who have gone through the same process. Granting i would be granted for a temporary resident visa to come to surrey B.C, will i be allowed to stay after the assessment and for example if i am going to pass the SEC assessment. Will i be allowed in this visa to look for a hospital to sponsor me for a Temporary Work permit to stay and work in Canada. To save some travel cost.

My apologies to the moderator if ever my question is not allowed here coz i am already asking about visa and maybe out of the topic already.

Thank u so much!

j8win

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Mar 6, 2009

You're on the correct forum here for questions about immigration and so on.

I think the reason they're saying "temporary resident visa" rather than "tourist" visa is related to which country's passport you carry. See the information found here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/visa.asp and follow the links to the different sections of the site for the most accurate data as well as forms and fees.

frustratednurse · Apr 13, 2009

Temporary Resident Visa is like the Tourist Visa in the US. The immigration officer upon arrival to Canada will determine on how long you can stay in the said country. Yes there is no problem when looking for an employer, the problem is with the visa that you have restricts you to work. But as far as I know you could request an extension for several months, just check the CIC website.

About converting the visa within CANADA, i'm not sure about that, please check the CIC website for accurate information.

http://www.cic.gc.ca

Zimari · Aug 24, 2009

hi! I am also trying to find answer to my question. I applied in CRNBC after a friend of mine from college.. was given an eligibility to sit for CRNE. I was expecting to receive the same assessment and was hoping also to get an eligibility.. instead i got a letter from CRNBC asking me to come to surey B.C to have that SEC Assessment and since this will involve a lot of money, ithink this will be the end of my dream of becoming an RN in BC canada. I am dissappointed and shock at the momemt..i don't know what to do next..

Hi

I feel the same way as you do!

I find it appaling the way the CRNBC is dealing with the parity of internationally trained nurses. I have worked for nearly 9 years as a nurse in the UK although I qualified in Spain. In my 9 years of experience I worked in varios fields of nursing: orthopaedics 2 years, respiratory, gastro, childreen and adult emergency for 4 years. The curriculum of my nursing diploma is very intense and we cover more than the BC nursing diploma. However and, after the hassle and the cost of having to take an IELTS exam in London which cost me £100, plus paying the fee Ca$260 approximately in order to have my papers reviewed by the CRNBC, plus an extra £40 for the NMC or college of nurses from England to send my references to the CRNBC, plus a ridiculous expense of 300 Euros that I had to pay to register with the college of nurses of Spain although I never worked there just because according to the CRNBC I have to be registered with them even though is I am a british resident and I have not lived in Spain for the past 9 years!!!! Can they only think outside the box, please?

The shocking thing is that nobody told me that I had to do a SEC until all the paperwork was available! Thank you for not letting me know CRNBC!

I am already in Canada as my husband has got a job here, however and seeing how slow and retro the CRNBC is dealing with the nurses registration I am already put off from the field! Imagine if I ever have any trouble? Oh my God! They are so useless! I dont think after paying an extra $600 for the CRNBC exam plus the membership money they will be that efficient in the end!

Oh, by the way! The uninterested CRNBC staff also lost some of my paperwork from Spain and instead they kept telling me that the paperwork never arrived! Until I sent the paperwork via courier twice and I managed to speak to a member of CRNBC staff with more intelligence than the average ones who found these paperwork misplaced in a corner!

Next May 2010 I am out of here, meanwhile I am enjoying so far the Rockies and in the winter will do some ski!

The sad thing is that Canada really needs lots of nurses but they need to change the way they are doing things right now and possibly hire new staff with common sense who can serve the CRNBC efficiently!

Chao!

Zimari

Zimari · Aug 24, 2009

hi!5cats,
thanks for your concern, yes i haven't been working for more than 2 years now.I worked in saudi arabia for more than 8 years in a tertiary hospital under JCIA (owned by the king of k.s.a).
I graduated from the Philippines but i am a resident of another country. Since i left saudi arabia i devoted my time to my daughter, and since she's on pre-school now, i am trying my luck for my Canadian dream. I always dream of living and working in Canada since i was young despite being a resident now of another country other than Philippines.The decision made by CRNBC was really dissapointing on my part. Yes, they want me to complete SEC on mental,med-surg and maternal/newborn nursing as well on child health. On sept. I will be totally out of practice for 3 years. I just wish that they will give me a chance to prove myself. Sad.

Hi

So sorry to hear that you are another victim of the SEC!! I have worked with many Phillipinos in the UK and they are the smartest nurses I have ever worked with!!!!

I wish you good luck in whatever you do!

Zimari

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Aug 25, 2009

Zimari, I'm very surprised that you didn't know CRNBC would require you to obtain a license from the country where you obtained your education. It's clearly stated on Page 8 of their Occupational Fact Sheet for Internationally Educated Nurses ( http://www.crnbc.ca/downloads/468.pdf ):

"Send the “Verification of Nurse Registration” (Form 25) to the regulatory body that gave you permission to practice as a nurse (the licensing body in your country). Complete Part A before you send this form. Part B is to be completed by the regulatory body. The regulatory body must send this form directly to CRNBC. You need to have been registered or licensed as a nurse where you studied nursing in order to be registered in Canada." (All provinces have this requirement.)

BC does not offer a nursing diploma, their education is a Baccalaureate Degree in Nursing. SEC is explained on Page 9:

"If CRNBC is unable to assess your application using paper documentation alone, you will be required to undertake a Substantially Equivalent Competency (SEC) Assessment to determine if you meet educational and competency requirements for registration."

The estimated cost of completing the process in BC is also plainly described on Page 3:

"You can estimate fees of approximately $ 1,400.00 Canadian paid over time to CRNBC throughout the process. This does not include costs relating to:

• whether you need to take the English exams and which ones you take

• whether you need to take a nursing re-entry program or registered nurse qualifying courses, or other upgrading

• translation (if required) of your documents

• notarization of documents

• having transcripts and verifications sent to CRNBC

• study guides you may purchase

• any travel costs associated with the application process."

If I can find all of this in a matter of a few minutes on their website, I expect you might have also.

The purpose of the regulatory bodies of the colleges of nursing in Canada is to ensure that the nursing care the public receives is porvided in a competent, safe, ethical manner and the licensure requirements are the same for EVERY SINGLE person who applies. Most of the colleges of nursing are working their way through an enormous backlog of applications from people like yourself. If documents are missing or the application is incomplete, that is hardly the registrar's office staff's fault. CRNBC offers the most complete explanations of how it all works of all the colleges in Canada. And all that information is readily found on their website. The only changes I can foresee in the assessment of IENs is for it to become tougher, not more lenient.

RGN1 · Aug 25, 2009

As an IEN who has successfully made the transition into Canadian nursing (celebrating my "Canniversary" today! ONE YEAR HERE!) I think it's really important for any country employing foreign nurses to be happy in their decision. It's equally important for the IEN to appreciate that there are many differences & to be adaptable & patient.

I had 12 years experience in the UK & trained in the days pre-diploma/degree. However, I didn't need to do the SEC because my hours in theory & practice were deemed equivalent to the Canadian Diploma. If they had requested it, I would have complied though.

No country is under any obligation whatsoever to employ a foreign worker. If you choose/desire/want to try & gain employment elsewhere than you have to accept that you have to do whatever they want in order for you to get that job.

For some that will mean they can't follow their dream but like it or not that's not the fault of the Country because they have an obligation to their cirtizens first & foremost & have absolutely NO obligation to you.

I'm glad I came, I feel I'm making a good contribution to my unit & the people I've nursed thus far. I'm grateful I made it here but I never, at any time, begrudged having to take the CRNE, or any of the other things I had to do to get here because if I was the person being nursed I'd want to know that my country had done their best to ensure I was a safe & competent practioner.

bonginkosi · Nov 22, 2009

Zimari has touched on some good points, the truth is the CRNBC intends to make registration as difficult as possible for forigners. while l appreciate the need to ensure properly qualified and skilled nurses are recruited,the way the CRNBC makes their decisions is "baffling and unpredictable." according to a ITU nurse manager in BC where l got a job pending registration. l have a good UK degree and fullfiled all their placement hours criteria in all the fields of nursing but still got refered for the SEC. l flew to Canada and attended it and thought l had done well but a few weeks later l was told l needed to do a 4 day course meaning l had to fly back to do it.at this point l had accepted that the CRNBC are truly unpredictable and will offer no explanation for any of their decision.imagine my suprise when l rang the only university that offers the course and they told me it was a one day a week course spread over four weeks.unbelievable!!.so l had to go thru the expense of fly to Canada and accomodating myself for four weeks for a course that lasts only four days, ridiculous.the whole process is insulting to say the least. seven yrs in intensive care l have never felt so belittled.Kwantlen wont play ball and realise these are programs for international nurses and course structure should reflect this.l have two other courses but they are online and am completing them.the courses are not cheap either and l have shelled nearly two thousand dollars in course fees alone.by my own consevative estimate is the true cost is $20000 and so far l have spent $14000 for flights and accomodation,transport and books and i am not even flying first class and not staying in luxury hotels.if l hadnt spent so much money l would have ditched it a long time ago.if l had known what l know l would not have started the process.l feel bad though for complaining because l met some nurses that have been asked to do course totaling a year's stay in Canada and without permission to work they have to cut thier lossess and abandon it. l dont even have to do a lot to get registered compared to some people but the financial cost is akin to suicide,

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Nov 22, 2009

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's suppose I wanted to move to the Philippines and work as a nurse. What would be involved? Not much actually because I could never be licensed in the Philippines. I was not educated there so I can never be registered. It wouldn't matter if I grew up in Manila and came to Canada to attend school because my family encouraged it.

Let's say I wanted to move to Manchester. What sort of obstacles would there be in my way and how much money would I have to spend to overcome them?

Even if I wanted to move 500 miles south and practice in Montana I would have to file the correct paperwork, perhaps upgrade my education, write the necessary exams, deal with immigration and visas, establishing credentials, criminal records check and so on. As a diploma-educated nurse with 15 years of experience in Canada, 12 of them in ICU, you'd think it should be easy for me but I know it wouldn't be.

The reality of it is that if you want to live and work in a country other than the one you were born into, you have to do whatever that country demands, fair or not. That four-day course you were required to take... I bet if you polled the others in the class you'd find that more than 90% of them already lived in the area. It's only been in the last year or so that the number of foreign-born nurses applying for Canadian registration from outside the country has risen so dramatically. So of course the college would run the class over four weeks; rejigging a college schedule isn't as easy as arranging for an oil change. And the course fees you complain about are heavily subsidized by the Canadian taxpayer; if you were required to pay the actual cost of the programs, you'd die of sticker shock.

Obviously you had good reasons for applying for a Canadian nursing license when you made your application. If they no longer apply, or you've decided that the effort is too onerous you can always stay where you are. Are you going to be happy working in a system that you've so thoroughly trashed?

Fiona59 · Nov 22, 2009

I'd also like to point out that it isn't even that easy to move between provinces for Canadian educated nurses.

Before the deluge of overseas applicants, it took the CLPNBC nearly six months to grant me a practice permit. They had the need to assess my education to see if it "met BC standards". I was educated in a province that has a longer educational, more indepth program than that offered in BC.

You feel insulted and unloved. Try living in the country, having a better education than is required and a skill set that exceeded what BC required and being told this stuff.

RN_Canada · Nov 22, 2009

Just a quick reminder as to WHY the SEC was put in place in the first place.

It was not put in place to create barriers to registration because Canada does not like foreigners.

It was put in place because employers were hiring internationally educated nurses that were not successful in the workplace despite the fact that they had passed the CRNE.

CRNE is only a paper based exam and is only one measure of competency it surely is not a complete measure of competency. If you were educated in Canada there are certain elements of your education that prepare for the other competency elements like therapeutic communication, leadership, assertiveness, critical thinking, and collaborative practice.

If you were not educated in Canada how does a regulatory agency assess those aspects of your basic education?

There is such a wide variation world wide in how nurses are educated and what the role of the nurse is.

The fact is that many IEN's were passing CRNE and then employers were getting an RN who could not successfully manage the role of the RN in the Canadian health care system.

The SEC is supposed to identify where those gaps are so that remediation can occur before getting into the job not afterward.

If it seems like it was a barrier erected to specifically keep you out of nursing try not to take it so personally. It is simply part of the strong public accountability framework that exists in Canada.

I will refrain from commenting on the competency of the staff at the CRNBC!

And I would like to also add that the IEN assessment center in BC was set up at a cost of 6 million dollars. I mention this to point out that this is the kind of money the government is willing to spend to make sure that it gets the nurses it needs.