Why is it ok to euthanize animals but not humans

leslie :-D · Jan 18, 2006

I really believe that we don't have to allow our loved ones to "suffer" at least. They need to be medicated until they are free from pain. If the side effect of the medication is that they die, then so be it, but I don't think anyone should have to be in pain in their dying days.

you are 100% correct. it's a sin, in this day & age, to allow someone to suffer in pain on their deathbed.

with that said, unfortunately there are too many nurses that fear moral or legal ramifications if they feel they've administered a lethal dose, or 'the' dose that ultimately the pt dies from. i've bitten my tongue on many an occassion because it's such a huge knowledge deficit on the part of these nurses. i've also been known to be quite aggressive and proactive in ensuring my pts got adequate pain relief, stepping on many a toe. absolutely no reason to suffer, none at all.

leslie

TiffyRN, BSN, PhD · Jan 18, 2006

My cat is DNR and on my own self-styled hospice; which means. . . If he goes, he goes, if he needs extraordinary intervention, there will be none except to end his suffering if he is having any. Right now he is pretty good, he's happy and loves spending hours on the couch being stroked; if that changes, we talk about if the time for the end is here. He hates all medical intervention, became traumatized and paranoid the last time he had to be on oral meds (didn't use to react that way even a couple of years ago). The last time he was really sick he had all kinds of testing, IV's, hospitalization, the vet could find nothing wrong with him other than mild dehydration, he's just old. He was miserable and terrified though and I'm not letting that happen again.

As for the humans; well they are supposed to be able to decide for themselves. The problem is too complex to explain in a few sentences but the reason (in my opinion) that families are always reversing living wills and DNR's are because the MD's know that if the patient dies, the family will still be alive to sue him/her. Seen it too many times where the living will only applies until the patient gets confused or unresponsive. I've threatened to haunt any of my family if they reverse my living will.

Personal experience with humans? On Christmas Eve my Grandmother had a massive CVA which left her unable/unwilling to eat/swallow, she was semi-responsive. My uncle was the family member closest (geographically & personally) to her and informed us she had a living will specifying no life support including artificial food/nutrition. Thankfully all the family was in agreement. She passed away hours after her other son (my dad) visited with her after flying in from South America. I know not everyone is lucky to have lived to an old age and a family that listens to what they say. I wish everyone could have it that way.

danu3 · Jan 18, 2006

i'm not aware of any hospice benefit for animals, are you?
and personally speaking, i have no problem w/euthanizing an animal when terminal and suffering. i suppose they (vets) could control the pain until the animal dies, but that would be up to the owner and their financial resources. regardless of the rationales, i find it a most merciful act.
leslie

Well, there is a problem with cost. As for hospice benefit for animals, at least not full blown hospice where you have a whole team consists of social worker, nurse, doctors, volunteers, pastor/priest/rabbi(if requested), others.

I am thinking more of letting the animal die "naturally" with strong pain control (this would include the potential lethal dose of pain medication where the intent is not to kill but to control pain).

weetziebat · Jan 18, 2006

Addie, I think you bring up a very good point. I know many people feel it is a sin in the eye's of God to take your own life, but personally I believe that only the individual can make the decision about their life. If someone has a terminal disease, and/or is in intractable pain, or just can't put up with their suffering anymore (physical or mental) I think it would be much kinder and more understanding to allow them to 'be put out of their misery' - just the way we do with our animals.

I believe all creatures have as much right on this earth as do people, and just because they can't talk, we get to decide what happens to them. I had a cat who was unable to deliver her last kitten (she'd run off when she went into labor) and by the time we found her she was in agony. I rushed her to the vet and he gave her a shot, while I hugged her and told her I loved her, and in an instant she was in peace.

How much softer, kinder and more generous for us to be able to do this for our loved humans, especially those able to say what they want. Without a living will, it would get too sticky. Noticed today the Supreme Court has again upheld Oregonian's right to assisted suicide. Thank God!

TypicalFish · Jan 18, 2006

I have been a nurse for three years and spent the first year and a half on a med-surg/oncology unit. All life is precious and valuable.
When there is an anminal suffering, in agonizing pain, nothing can be done, and the medications does not allow for comfort, why are pet owners given the opposition and made to feel bad if they allow there animal to suffer. Why are we allowed to end the suffering of our beloved animal but not a beloved family member.
Why are the humans that want to end their suffering not allowed and the doctors that want to help persecuted for helping. YES I KNOW IT IS A MORTAL SIN IN GOD'S EYES, so no I do not need or require a bible lesson.
But I am just curious what others think on this issue from a medical stand point. Am I totally wrong for feeling as I do. The first thing a vet says to a pet owner is "Is it right to allow him/her to suffer"
QUESTION: Why is it humane to euthanize a very sick animal but not allow the same choice for an A&Ox3 individual with a living will?

I have several thoughts about this

(I am an RN, but was also a certified Vet Tech for 6 years)

1) Generally, when a pet is that ill/injured, people do what they think is best, and they want to end the pet's suffering in a genuinely loving way.

2) There really isn't any way for a peron to "know" what a pet would "want' so they make the best choice that they can

3) If a person has a living will or is aware enough to make that decision-it's their life, and they have to come to terms with whatever beliefs/faith that they may have; I have no right to tell them what to do or not do-I really really believe that.

4) but at the same time, I have seen people at work and with family, who have zero quality of life, who want desparately to live, and I have seen people who were "DNR", who for whatever reason-family, paperwork, etc-have been resuscitated and are glad-

5) And using the analogy of euthansia for animals brings me to the main point that causes me to think twice about euthanasia for people is this: Once euthanasia is considered acceptable for people to choose for themselves, how long before it becomes a choice that families make for a pt; we have all seen families make choices opposite to what a patient wants-how long would it take before it becomes " well, we think that mom is suffering, and we know that she wouldn't want to a burden to us (or our finances, or our time) so we think that helping her go would be best"-I realise that this greatly simplifies it, but it seems to be the natural progression of this type of thing-they do currently allow euthanasia for extremely sick babies in the Netherlands. Or even worse, "LTC pt susie's insurance has run out, and we are losing $10,000 a day on her care; it would make the best sense to end her suffering" ---A hospital recently withdrew life support from a 27/28 year old woman because she had no way to pay her bills(Slate E-zine). Kevorkian filmed some of his assisted suicides to prove that he didn't actually do it-but he also had one that showed a person changing his mind at the last minute, but kevorkian not allwoing him to back out. People currently can choose to terminate a pregnancy that will produce a child with Downs, or some other birth defect that they deem unacceptable-how long would it be to allow that after the fact "susie is severely Downs, and has no real quality of life, plus her physical defects cause her suffering, /we can't afford the intensive care that she needs, / the rest of our kids feel neglected...." It just seems to open a whole Pandoras Box of ethical questions that we may not be able to answer or handle. Movements grow from movements, once euthanasia is allowed for certain cases, I sincerely believe that it will progress to other cases-and where would it stop?

And while I guess it is likely bad taste; I also think of a propaganda film make by Hitler that, through a love story, made the argument that anyone who is defective in anyway wouldn't want to live, and so euthanasia would be best

But I am not against it; I wouldn't insist that someone suffer needlessly;I sincerely, completely beleive that each person has the unequivocable right to decide this type of thing-I have also seen patients really wanting suffering to end. I worked with a pharmacist with strong pro-views, and learned from him. I would never tell someone that they are wrong for wanting to end their own suffering. I can't imagine being faced with a terminal illness and long-term horrific pain. I honestly am undecided, because it is a very permanent choice. These are just the things i think about with this topic

Fuzzy · Jan 18, 2006

Ah but there is hospice care for animals. I see it all the time as I'm a vet tech. The hospice care occurs at home with a loving owner providing the comfort care and a modern veterinarian providing proper pain management. The pain management can by by tablet, injection, and/or patch many times and include narcotics. Sometimes the vet or the the tech will make house calls to apply the patches and give injections but most times the clients are taught these techniques by the hospital staff. Yes there is also euthanasia available but a few people have religious and ethical beliefs against its use even in animals. Part of the vets and techs oath has to so with alleviating suffering in animals and to a point animal owners. Thankfully in vet med we have that choice. In human med there are other factors including the family beliefs, whether there is a will, ethical reasons, and I'm sure many others. I hope that should I get into a situation where I cannot make a decision that my wishes will be carried out as to die with dignity.

Fuzzy

Nurse Ratched, RN · Jan 18, 2006

As the resident flaming atheist my decision to end my life should I ever be in that position would be based on the least harm done to those left behind. Since I'm not concerned about an afterlife or paying for that particular sin, the question would be, could I choose my preferred exit without traumatizing loved ones. I believe strongly that those who are of sound mind should be permitted to make their own choices. Those in the medical/nursing profession who are willing to assist in this decision, having determined (through whatever beaurocratic kluge that would inevitably be devised) the person is of sound mind, should be able to.

grimmy, RN · Jan 18, 2006

[color=darkslategray]i believe, as many in oregon obviously do, that euthanasia should be a legal option. the link below may help you understand a little more about the movement to legalize euthanasia, what it means and doesn't mean.

http://www.compassionandchoices.org/aboutus/themovement.php

i also think that most americans don't fully embrace the phases of life (which includes death). we don't talk about it calmly; we usually imbue it with a lot of unnecessary drama and mystery. we don't face our fears. we (in general) ignore the aged of our population in our fear. for our animals, we have a much different set of rules, which is weird. certainly, i don't want my beloved pets to die, but i do not want them to suffer unnecessarily. i hope you find some answers at that website. i'm a member.

admorn03 · Jan 18, 2006

Everyone has made very professional, compassionate and valide points. I greatly appreciate all of your inputs and feel very proud to be a nurse among you guys.

I just want to add and point out that when I mention peaceful passing via euthanzie, I speak of those that are very terminally ill. (ie. cancer, AIDS and so forth) But yes as humans and caregivers I do agree and uphold appling the best quality of life for all my patients to to very last breath.

When I did med/surg oncology I had a patient that i begun caring for on friday. Patient came in with pnemonia and SOB. On a 100% non-rebreather, continous pulse ox, and usual tons of home meds. Famliy was in the room the whole time (private rooms, very nice). Mask would come off and SAT'S would drop to 65-70'%. Patient gasping for breath (DNR of course). Family was cared for as well. By saturday she was decling. Same scenerio mask off SAT's were 60-65%. Family standing right there rushing to put maske back on which made the patient panic more, which inturn her SAT's dropped more and quicker. One of the best oncology MD's was caring for the patient and told me it was not pneumonia but lung ca, the patient had that many nodules in the lungs bilaterally. By sunday SAT's were dropping to 40-50%, patient on continous bipap. I phoned the MD and told him it was not improving and thank GOD the family was ready to accept the end. Placed patient on a morphine drip til MD arrived and could speak with the family. Then the mask was removed and the IVP morphine was administered for comfort as the patient slipped away. It was painful to observe but I stayed professional and as calm as possible.

This was the most compassionate way to let the patient pass and we made her as comfrotable as possible. The patient was greatful for every tiny thing I did and the patient touched my heart deeply over three days. After tieing up the end, family care, and paperwork I lost it and all of my co-workers were supportive and told me I did the right thing for my patient. I always wonder if more could have been done for the patient. All I did was update the MD on condition and allow the MD and the family to come to their own terms.

Nursing and the whole medical field is very demanding and rewarding. I only want those that are A&OX3 to make decisions to die. I know that I would not want to live my life as a vegetable FOR ME ONLY that is no quality of life for me. But cudos to those that help us care for their family members and keep them comfortable. It is not easy.

To be honest I do not know what I would do if it were my own mother. There is no one to help me with the decision for I am a only child and my own children are only 10 and 5.

Once again thanks for the input and I aplogize if I offend anyone, this is not my intention at all. ALL LIFE IS PRECIOUS AND VALUABLE THIS IS THE WAY OF GOD.

dkwyatt · Jan 28, 2006

Hospice care for animals is available, especially through some of the schools of veterinary medicine, I believe Colorado's vet school offers it. Many people don't want hospice care for their pets once that animals quality of life doesn't warrent keeping the pet alive just for the owner's sake. As a veterinarian I tell people to keep going as long as they perceive that their pet has quality of life and is getting some enjoyment out of each day. Once they get to the point where there is no quality of life it's time to say goodbye and not prolong the suffering just because we can. I am a senior nursing student after 20 years of practice because sadly I can make just as good an income and better benefits than in practicing veterinary medicine in my part of the country.

Fuzzy · Jan 28, 2006

When people ask me, "How will I know that it's time to consider euthanasia?", I tell them to list three things that their pet loves to do. These things cannot include eating and/or sleeping as most pets will eat and sleep up until death. But they can include chasing the ball, rolling in the cat nip, wanting walks, cuddle time etc. As the pet becomes more unable to do those things then euthanasia might need to be considered. It is basically unethical for a veterinarian to recommend euthanasia as a sole treatment unless the animal is suffering or there is no hope for the situation ie. coma from end stage renal failure. Euthanasia is ultimately the owner's decision. Believe me most good pet owners do not make this decision lightly.

Fuzzy, CVT

marilynmom, LPN, NP · Jan 29, 2006

YES I KNOW IT IS A MORTAL SIN IN GOD'S EYES

Well I don't agree with that at all. I don't believe anything is a "mortal sin".

I don't belive humans should have to suffer anymore than animals should and it is an individuals right to end their life, no one should have to suffer needlessly.