Why aren't there more nursing programs in your State !!!!

[SA2BDOCTOR]

Everyone knows that there is a nursing shortage. However, there are not enough programs designed or catered to the people who really wants to go to school for nursing.

To me there should be more evening programs, there should be more part-time BSN programs. There should be more evening programs that caters to mothers/fathers who have to work during the day, but have the time in the evening. Or just about any person period who needs work, but desires to become a nurse.

There are so many people, who wants to become a nurse, but either their schedules dont mesh with the program in their vicinty, or there is a LONG waiting list etc.......

I believe that if this issue can be addressed then there would not be a nursing shortage and there will not be "great" to hire nurses from abroad.

What do you think about this??????

[SA2BDOCTOR]

Oh! my gosh, I can only imagine, the experience you all had.

[sunnyjohn]

....

I think we would be better off focusing any expansion of nursing programs into mid-sized communities with regional community hospitals. Such hospitals are large enough to provide sufficient clinical experiences for the students -- but are not now overstaturated with students falling all over each other. But such communities are exactly the kind of communities that are paying the worst salaries for faculty.

Until the community ("public") feels the pain of the shortage, I doubt they will be willing to spend the money needed to solve it.

Here is some information that may go along with this arguement.

The AOA is actively expanding. As a result it is opening DO schools across the country to deal with the impending doctor shortage. A number of these new schools are in rural communities, smaller towns/cities and in places far removed from a medical college.

An example of one of these new small community medical schools is LMU-DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine in Harrogate TN (a rural community north of Nashville). Debusk admits its first class this Fall.

LMU DeBusk College of Ostopathic Medicine

The arguement is these community hopsitals usually provide support for an area of hundereds of miles. The patient acuity is there.They also feel that the best way to attract medical/nursing talent to these communities is to train locally.

If doctors can be trained in these areas and new medical schools opened in small commuities, then surely the patient load is there to support new nursing schools. This way nursing students won't be tripping over each other

If communities want talent, the community hospitals and locals will have to help pay for it.

[llg, PhD, RN]

I"m just wondering--are hospitals indeed teeming with student nurses that they can't figure out what to do with?

Yes -- but not everywhere. In some communities with several schools, it is a major problem.

It's made worse by the fact that the best learning experiences (and the most popular clinical times) are limited to specific days of the week and times of the day. For example, few nursing students (or faculty members) want clinicals on Sundays ... or during the night shift. The learning experiences are not as good on those shifts (with patients asleep and few procedures happening) and people want to be home with their families during those times. So, there is a HUGE demand for clinical slots during the weekday mornings -- but no students in the hospital on Sunday evening.

Another complication is that RN students are not the only students who want to use the facility. Every discipline (RT, PT, OT, Pharmacy, LPN, CNA, Medicine, EMT, Paramedic, Social Work, etc. ) wants to use the same facilities for their training. Prospective students want "shadowing" experiences. New employees need supervised clinical experiences for their orientations. etc. etc. etc. Each group thinks that its needs should be given priority. But they are really all important and to the people who are asked to maintain the quality of care on an ongoing, daily basis, the constant changing of student group after student group can be a nightmare. One school's group is there in the AM: another group comes after lunch. The next day, 2 more different groups come. And that's just the RN students! The other disciplines' students are also coming and going.

The problem is particularly acute in specialty areas in which there are only a few units in a given town. For example, peds, OB, psych, OR, ED, etc. I work in a children's hospital. Every discipline wants clincal practice with peds -- and they want to do phisical things, such as give meds, change dressings, start IV's, etc. There just aren't enough "ideal learning experiences" to go around.

[llg, PhD, RN]

Here is some information that may go along with this arguement.

....

The arguement is these community hopsitals usually provide support for an area of hundereds of miles. The patient acuity is there.They also feel that the best way to attract medical/nursing talent to these communities is to train locally.

If doctors can be trained in these areas and new medical schools opened in small commuities, then surely the patient load is there to support new nursing schools. This way nursing students won't be tripping over each other

If communities want talent, the community hospitals and locals will have to help pay for it.

Thanks for the info. It's good to see that at least some other people are thinking outside the box and addressing some of the fundamental problems underlieing the problems in nursing education.

[SA2BDOCTOR]

Yes -- but not everywhere. In some communities with several schools, it is a major problem.

It's made worse by the fact that the best learning experiences (and the most popular clinical times) are limited to specific days of the week and times of the day. For example, few nursing students (or faculty members) want clinicals on Sundays ... or during the night shift. The learning experiences are not as good on those shifts (with patients asleep and few procedures happening) and people want to be home with their families during those times. So, there is a HUGE demand for clinical slots during the weekday mornings -- but no students in the hospital on Sunday evening.

Another complication is that RN students are not the only students who want to use the facility. Every discipline (RT, PT, OT, Pharmacy, LPN, CNA, Medicine, EMT, Paramedic, Social Work, etc. ) wants to use the same facilities for their training. Prospective students want "shadowing" experiences. New employees need supervised clinical experiences for their orientations. etc. etc. etc. Each group thinks that its needs should be given priority. But they are really all important and to the people who are asked to maintain the quality of care on an ongoing, daily basis, the constant changing of student group after student group can be a nightmare. One school's group is there in the AM: another group comes after lunch. The next day, 2 more different groups come. And that's just the RN students! The other disciplines' students are also coming and going.

The problem is particularly acute in specialty areas in which there are only a few units in a given town. For example, peds, OB, psych, OR, ED, etc. I work in a children's hospital. Every discipline wants clincal practice with peds -- and they want to do phisical things, such as give meds, change dressings, start IV's, etc. There just aren't enough "ideal learning experiences" to go around.

I dont mean to cast a cloud, but I disagree with your statement about few students wanting to do clinicals on a Sundays and Night shift. Before I moved to KC from TX, I was in a preceptor program, whereby, when it comes to doing your clinicals. You were matched to a preceptor i.e. a nurse who will be your teacher one-on-one in the hospital setting (Of course you worked per their shifts). You were not part of a group. My point is that 90% of the students who were in this special program, chose nights and weekends shifts to do their clinicals. It enabled us to work around our jobs, school, study and family. Thus I believe, if there are more flexibility with our current Nursing programs statewide, you will see the amazing responses.

[llg, PhD, RN]

I dont mean to cast a cloud, but I disagree with your statement about few students wanting to do clinicals on a Sundays and Night shift. Before I moved to KC from TX, I was in a preceptor program, whereby, when it comes to doing your clinicals. You were matched to a preceptor i.e. a nurse who will be your teacher one-on-one in the hospital setting (Of course you worked per their shifts). You were not part of a group. My point is that 90% of the students who were in this special program, chose nights and weekends shifts to do their clinicals. It enabled us to work around our jobs, school, study and family. Thus I believe, if there are more flexibility with our current Nursing programs statewide, you will see the amazing responses.

Your situation was an exception. It is not the common one. As you said, you were not in a clinical group and were in a 1-on-one preceptor program. I have also encountered many students who would like to schedule those typesof experiences that way.

However, most nursing school clinicals are not 1-on-1 preceptored experiences. Most clinicals are done in a group with an instructor. It is less common for people to prefer night clinicals and Sundays in that situation -- though Saturdays are a more popular. Imagine 10 students on a unit where 75% of all the patients are asleep. They just don't get as much experience in that circumstance. It's also more expensive as the school has to pay premium pay for the instructor to work the "off shift." Also, schools worry about the safety of their students coming and going to and from clinicals in the dark. Plus, it is harder for many mothers with small children to find child care over-night. I've never encountered any school that regularly offered large amounts of clinical experience on night shifts -- only a few ocassional experiences.

[JeanettePNP, MSN, RN, NP]

The only time I"ve ever encountered a student nurse in the hospital was when I was giving birth to my first. She was a great help. But I can imagine how crazy it can be with dozens of students milling around needing direction when nurses just want to get their work done.

[SA2BDOCTOR]

Thanks for sharing. All that I am saying, is that there need to be more options for prospective nursing students. Unfortunately there are not enough programs. More day and evening classes should be developed in different states. This will help eliminate the long waiting list.

As the others have shared, in order for this to happen we need more instructors etc. I am just saying that something has to be done. Or maybe schools can change their current programs to accept more students, rather than 20 - 100 per semester.

[SA2BDOCTOR]

Your situation was an exception. It is not the common one. As you said, you were not in a clinical group and were in a 1-on-one preceptor program. I have also encountered many students who would like to schedule those typesof experiences that way.

However, most nursing school clinicals are not 1-on-1 preceptored experiences. Most clinicals are done in a group with an instructor. It is less common for people to prefer night clinicals and Sundays in that situation -- though Saturdays are a more popular. Imagine 10 students on a unit where 75% of all the patients are asleep. They just don't get as much experience in that circumstance. It's also more expensive as the school has to pay premium pay for the instructor to work the "off shift." Also, schools worry about the safety of their students coming and going to and from clinicals in the dark. Plus, it is harder for many mothers with small children to find child care over-night. I've never encountered any school that regularly offered large amounts of clinical experience on night shifts -- only a few ocassional experiences.

Thanks for sharing. All that I am saying, is that there need to be more options for prospective nursing students. Unfortunately there are not enough programs. More day and evening classes should be developed in different states. This will help eliminate the long waiting list.

As the others have shared, in order for this to happen we need more instructors etc. I am just saying that something has to be done. Or maybe schools can change their current programs to accept more students, rather than 20 - 100 per semester.

[SA2BDOCTOR]

The only time I"ve ever encountered a student nurse in the hospital was when I was giving birth to my first. She was a great help. But I can imagine how crazy it can be with dozens of students milling around needing direction when nurses just want to get their work done.

I wouldnt think that. Schools have relationship with hospitals and nurses I am sure have not forgotten where they came from.

[Freedom42]

Interesting thread. Here are my two cents:

I agree that there's no shortage of nurses, only a shortage of attractive nursing jobs. Government reports state that the shortage is caused in part by people leaving the profession due to unacceptable working conditions. I wouldn't worry about a glut caused by nursing schools, either: There are reports by various nursing organizations that suggest that even if the capacity of nursing schools were doubled immediately, the shortage expected by 2020 would still not be met. We've got an entire generation of nurses about to reach retirement age.

I disagree that there's a shortage of instructors with master's and Ph.Ds, but there is a shortage of the political will to come up with the money to pay them competitive salaries. It also costs about three times more to educate a nurse than it does to educate an engineer. (Consider the 1:8 instructor-to-student ratio in nursing programs versus a typical class size of 24 in other academic areas.) Yet the per-student allocation by most legislatures is no different for nursing than it is for any other program. Lawmakers do not consider these ratios, so schools must -- and faculty salaries are not raised as a result.

One poster questioned why a nursing professor earns 47K and a law professor 100k. Since that's exactly the situation at the public university I attended, I did some digging. What I found was that the law school has an extremely well-organized alumni association that raises at least $350,000 a year in private contributions and that has established an endowment in excess of $2.2 million. The interest from that endowment allows the law school to offer competitive salaries. When I go back to school in January, I intend to find out if this has been considered at the nursing school and what it would take to get a similar campaign established, either by alumni, students or their supporters.

In the meantime, I've written a letter to the governor pointing out the salary disparity and the problem it poses for students who can't get into nursing programs. I hope my classmates will do the same. The time spent is an investment in our futures.

I agree with posters who suggest that the situation will change when the public feels the pain.

[NaomieRN]

My school would love to offer more nursing classes, but who is going to teach? The nurses can make more money working as a staff nursing in a hospital, why would they want to teach?