Actually, a lot of medical students/pre-med students as well.
I've been googling the subject DNP vs. MD and find little from nurses, but a slew of pure hatred for nurses and the DNP.
What gives? I understand the idea- the fear that the DNP will start to deprive the MD from practice, rather than work with the MD.
I found the threads interesting as at no point did any of the med students, not once, show concern that the quality of care provided might be lacking with a DNP.
The med students have this idea that from year 1 of undergrad through completion of a DNP program there are only 600-700 hours required in clinic, and that a DNP takes 2 years or less presuming one already has a BSN.
They also seem to rage in regards to nurses being able to work, and thus get paid, while attending school.
They call the DNP's "Dr. Fakey McNursey", and worse.
Where's the respect? What about the patients?
Why all the hostility? Why do MD's feel they're being pushed away? Is there a history of these new DNP's not providing quality care, or working with MD's? Is it just an ego issue? And why do so many existing NP's dislike the idea of the DNP (beyond what I've read- that additional education isn't apparently needed, some claim)?
I actually only want to take what is useful from physician training. I certainly don't want to put the biomedical, clinical point of view over all others. In my area, psych, relief from drugs has not been realized. In fact, people with schizophrenia for example, do better in third world countries where there is a better social network. Social interaction can change gene expression. So, yes I'm concerned about patient care so I don't want my education more in line with physician training.
Forgive me, but I don't see how that suggests there's a problem with medical or nursing training in the US. What you're referring to is a cultural issue. People with psychological issues tend to do better in third world countries because their culture doesn't see it as a stigma and looks at these individuals as needing help from the entire community. It's better to ask others for help than take drugs discreetly. It doesn't have much to do with the health care providers in their country. In the US, psychological disease is seen as a stigma, which has a negative impact in the recovery of these patients. It's easier to take drugs discreetly than ask others for help and risk being isolated. Once again, it doesn't really have anything to do providers.
So, I'm a little confused as to why you're suggesting that a cultural issue means that something is wrong with the way health care providers are trained. Perhaps you can clarify?
Unfortunately, that's a very bad stance to take in the realm of healthcare. Policies and protocols need to be driven by substantial evidence resulting from extensive studies. I would think that practically everyone involved in healthcare, and even those not involved (ie. politicians), care at least to some extent about studies. Studies are what drive evidence-based medicine. Try telling any researcher (who generally tend to be better versed in statistics and experimental design than most clinicians) that studies don't matter and see what kind of response you'll get.
I could care less what any researcher thinks on the subject. This is a matter to be decided by public opinion and it will be decided on that basis. And you are wrong in your thought that everyone in healthcare thinks that this should be driven by evidence based research. Everyone besides you and your buddies are smart enough to see the evidence for themselves instead of trying to discount every study on the subject and sit back and claim that there is no evidence to support this.
Citation please. No anecdotes! It's just hard to believe that, when residency directors are thinking of extending family practice residency by an additional year because of how much primary care physicians need to know to be competent, a fraction of the training is enough to be a fully independent midlevel. I can't imagine allowing a beginning third year med student (who has more basic science training and similar clinical hours as most NP/DNP curricula provide) or a beginning fourth year med student (who has more basic science training and far more clinical hours of training than most NP/DNP curricula provide) to practice independently. I'm genuinely curious about the logic behind the concept that less training is better than more training when taking care of patients. I hope that you can respond to me without resorting to mudslinging and insults like you have against viral.
"Citation please????" You can stop with your anecdotes as well. Don't tell me to give a citation for every statement that I make and then try to give anecdotal evidence for every one of your claims. Good grief, you follow up your citation please garbage with what? An anecdote? Can you believe you just did that? You are right, beginning third and fourth year med students have absolutely no experience. I can't imagine seeing them in independent practice either. An NP on the other hand usually has tons of experience. You are genuinely curious about the logic behind the concept that less training is better? It is very simple, when someone does the job better for half the price it is a better value.
The same could be said for yours and mine as well. So, why are we arguing on an anonymous forum when we know that no one on either side will be changing their views? This battle should be taking place in the political scene and the courts, not on message boards.
Why are you arguing on an anonymous forum if opinions are worthless? Of course the same could be said for your's.
Actually, I don't think viral ever implied that NPs aren't smart enough to do anything. What he/she did say was that midlevel training isn't enough to be practicing autonomously. Two very different things. Don't be so quick to think that every statement not supporting independent practice is an insult.
I don't consider them to be all that different. You are saying that they don't know enough, don't have enough intelligence, aren't smart enough. So I guess in the words of your friend wowza "no argument, argue semantics", right?
Specializes in Education, FP, LNC, Forensics, ED, OB.
So, why are we arguing on an anonymous forum when we know that no one on either side will be changing their views? This battle should be taking place in the political scene and the courts, not on message boards.
This is probably one of the best things I've seen on this thread.
Why ARE you debating this here?
Sometimes I think that the majority of non-nurses (I'm not talking about NURSING STUDENTS) come here to be divisive only. And, this thread is proof-positive of that.
May I remind the non-nurses (not nursing students) that you are guests here and out of our own generosity we are allowing you to post. But, going back and forth with some of these "opinions" from the non-nurses (not nursing students) looks like you have an agenda that you are trying to further at allnurses.com. It doesn't look like healthy debate and some of these posts from the non-nurses (not nursing students) appear to be bombs pitched into the discussion for the sole purpose of search and destroy not seek and understand.
Could it be you might be better served at another site?
And if midlevels were really concerned about patient care, they would make their education more in line with physician training. Instead, what it really is about is money- not patients. You can house it in whatever light you want to but it really is about money. Midlevels want the money that being a doctor entails withouth having to go through the training, the time, the effort or spend the money associated with the duration of education.
Since when is medical school the ONLY way to go? In NM, psychologists and optometrists can prescribe medication and they never attended medical school. The studies have shown they provide excellent patient care in comparison to physicians. In OK, optometrists can perform LASIX surgery and they've been doing it for years - it's helping to bring the cost of the procedure DOWN. These were turf battles the AMA tried to fight and lost.
I'm preventing major health problems by offering low cost care to patients who are uninsured and underinsured. Several of my patients can't afford expensive visits at either a physician's office or urgent care clinic, so they come to me. They are getting excellent and cost effective care. The reason I opened a practice in a medically underserved area is because patients needed health care and physicians weren't interested in providing it.
Get used to it, physicians will never be in control of health care again. Those days are long gone - thank GOD for that!
Without physicians in control of medicine, there will be patient deaths, patients being mistreated for their illness, and many lawsuits over malpractice. I'm not sure how in the past few years my NP colleagues have seen fit to undermine medicine. It amazes me that a group of educated people can let themselves be lured into thinking that 2-3yrs of NP schooling will allow them to provide the same services as those of physicians who have trained 3x or more longer. Just fascinating.....
Without physicians in control of medicine, there will be patient deaths, patients being mistreated for their illness, and many lawsuits over malpractice.
In case you hadn't noticed, we have all those things now -- and had them long before there even was such a thing as an NP.
Without physicians in control of medicine, there will be patient deaths, patients being mistreated for their illness, and many lawsuits over malpractice. I'm not sure how in the past few years my NP colleagues have seen fit to undermine medicine. It amazes me that a group of educated people can let themselves be lured into thinking that 2-3yrs of NP schooling will allow them to provide the same services as those of physicians who have trained 3x or more longer. Just fascinating.....
Where exactly did you learn to do your math anyway? Since when did 4 years equal three times 2-3 years? The other thing that is amazing is that you can't understand what a subset is. Have you ever heard of one? Physicians never should have been in control of medicine either. That is the leading problem we have in healthcare today. They have WAY too much control and far more than was ever warranted or deserved.
Forgive me, but I don't see how that suggests there's a problem with medical or nursing training in the US. What you're referring to is a cultural issue. People with psychological issues tend to do better in third world countries because their culture doesn't see it as a stigma and looks at these individuals as needing help from the entire community. It's better to ask others for help than take drugs discreetly. It doesn't have much to do with the health care providers in their country. In the US, psychological disease is seen as a stigma, which has a negative impact in the recovery of these patients. It's easier to take drugs discreetly than ask others for help and risk being isolated. Once again, it doesn't really have anything to do providers.
So, I'm a little confused as to why you're suggesting that a cultural issue means that something is wrong with the way health care providers are trained. Perhaps you can clarify?
Our medical and nursing training is a part of our culture. Our healthcare system, which is not the best in the world, might benefit from other cultural input.
The Soteria House, Crossing Place, and McAuliffe House were "treatment" centers for schizophrenia in our own country which emphasized social environment and no drugs, as well as non-professional staff. Studies showed these patients improved as much as hospital-treated patients at a fraction of the cost.
Without physicians in control of medicine, as they are now, there will be patient deaths, patients being mistreated for their illness, and many lawsuits over malpractice. I'm not sure how in the past few years my NP colleagues have seen fit to undermine medicine. It amazes me that a group of educated people can let themselves be lured into thinking that 2-3yrs of NP schooling will allow them to provide the same services as those of physicians who have trained 3x or more longer. Just fascinating.....
Our medical and nursing training is a part of our culture. Our healthcare system, which is not the best in the world, might benefit from other cultural input.
The Soteria House, Crossing Place, and McAuliffe House were "treatment" centers for schizophrenia in our own country which emphasized social environment and no drugs, as well as non-professional staff. Studies showed these patients improved as much as hospital-treated patients at a fraction of the cost.
What you're still referring to is a cultural problem, not one that is inherent with the medical/nursing training system. Even if our health care workers switched to treating psychiatric patients the way they're treated in third world countries, once the patients are released the way American society reacts to them (ie. with stigma) will have an incredibly negative effect on the patients.
Where exactly did you learn to do your math anyway? Since when did 4 years equal three times 2-3 years? The other thing that is amazing is that you can't understand what a subset is. Have you ever heard of one? Physicians never should have been in control of medicine either. That is the leading problem we have in healthcare today. They have WAY too much control and far more than was ever warranted or deserved.
I respectfully point out that the 3-7 years of residency after medical school is still training. Medical school is considered as undergraduate medical education while residency is considered graduate medical education.
dgenthusiast
237 Posts
Forgive me, but I don't see how that suggests there's a problem with medical or nursing training in the US. What you're referring to is a cultural issue. People with psychological issues tend to do better in third world countries because their culture doesn't see it as a stigma and looks at these individuals as needing help from the entire community. It's better to ask others for help than take drugs discreetly. It doesn't have much to do with the health care providers in their country. In the US, psychological disease is seen as a stigma, which has a negative impact in the recovery of these patients. It's easier to take drugs discreetly than ask others for help and risk being isolated. Once again, it doesn't really have anything to do providers.
So, I'm a little confused as to why you're suggesting that a cultural issue means that something is wrong with the way health care providers are trained. Perhaps you can clarify?